Health Care Bill Page 425 - The Truth
1. Text of hysterical rumor:
On Page 425 of Obama's health care bill, the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier. Yes... They are going to push SUICIDE to cut Medicare spending!!! And no, I am NOT KIDDING YOU! So those of you who voted for Obama have now put yourself and your own parents in dire straights... Congratulations!
2. Text of pp. 425-430 (Section 1233) of the actual health care reform bill (House Bill 3200), which, as far as I can tell after wading through several pages of legalese, merely amends Title 18 of the Social Security Act to stipulate that Medicare will pay for -- not mandate -- "advance care planning consultations" between individuals and physicians every five years, during which a spectrum of end-of-life options can be explained and discussed so said individuals can knowledgeably choose their own treatment preferences in advance:
Page 424, Line 15:
SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.
(a) MEDICARE.--
(1) IN GENERAL.--Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended--
(A) in subsection (s)(2)--
(i) by striking "and" at the end of subparagraph (DD);
(ii) by adding "and" at the end of subparagraph (EE); and
(iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:
Page 425:
"(FF) advance care planning consultation (as defined in subsection (hhh)(1));"; and
(B) by adding at the end the following new subsection:
"Advance Care Planning Consultation
"(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term 'advance care planning consultation' means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:
"(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
"(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
"(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
"(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline,
Page 426:
the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
"(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
"(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include--
"(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual's family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;
"(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and
"(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is
Page 427:
unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a healthcare proxy).
"(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State--
"(I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; and
"(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii).
"(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that--
"(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment;
Page 428:
"(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and
"(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physcians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.
"(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is--
"(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)); and
"(B) a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.
"(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).
Page 429:
"(B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.
"(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.
"(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term 'order regarding life sustaining treatment' means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that--
"(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;
Page 430:
"(ii) effectively communicates the individual's preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;
"(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and
"(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.
"(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items--
"(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;
"(ii) the individual's desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;
"(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
"(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration."
Poll: Does it seem plausible to you that this health care plan would push people to undergo euthanasia?
1) Yes, absolutely.
2) I think it could be true.
3) I don't know.
4) Pretty sure it's not true.
5) Absolutely not.
Read more:
• Full text of the version of the health care bill currently under discussion (H.R. 3200)
• Audio of health care bill opponent Betsy McCaughey misrepresenting the contents of page 425 of the health care bill on Fred Thompson's radio talk show
• Impartial analysis of page 425 of the health care bill by St. Petersburg Times reporters on Politifact.com
Comments
My girlfriend received this today and being the good little repub she is brought it up as soon as she got home to me… her progressive atheist
I swatted that meme down with a quickness.
Why do so many people in America refuse to provide for themselves? Instead they want to suck the tit of the government and accomplish nothing for themselves. If this is what you want, Russia will be glad to have you.
This bill is horrible! I don’t care if this end of life crap is not required! The feds HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING IN THE HEALTH CARE BUSINESS!!!!!!!!
Ditto to #3 comment. 1017 pages of gobbligook to complicate, instead of improve the healthcare system in America. This is an obvious bill to appease leftists that some Congressmen “owe” things to. Wake up, insane America!!
Be sure your Congressman knows how you feel! That is the only mouthpiece we have!! Help!
Even through I have ensurence coverage now, I remember being along with my three young children, I remember going with out food to feed them because they really needed to see a doctor, and it was let them suffer in pain, or with out eating for a week to pay the doctor bills. We have right here in Hawaii several clinics that will not even look at you if you can not pay the bill right them. I wander how many of our congressman and people in the goverment have been with out insurence for them selves or their children. This articel 425, is not as bad as every body says, we have already talked to our doctor about a living will and etc. Do you want to live when your 90 with no quality of life and be kept alive by machines, and costing the govermwnt and your family thousands of dollars.
think about it!!!
What part of (hhh) suggests the “Advance Care Planning Consultation” is not mandatory, especially the part about “end-of-life services”? Did you read paragraph 3, which goes out of the way to close a possible loop hole? Here’s paragraph (3):
“(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination
21 under subsection (WW), including any related discussion
22 during such examination, shall not be considered an ad23
vance care planning consultation for purposes of applying
24 the 5-year limitation under paragraph”
Oh, and government mandated and provided health care is NOT the only possible solution, and not the best because historically (and today is no exception):
1. Bureaucracy has always been known to be expensive and restrictive, and no one has ever known it to be otherwise. Mandatory health care will be expensive and restrictive as well.
2. There is a laundry list of scandals readily available from countries that provide government provided health already. (I live with a Canadian.)
3. A quick reminder that “The grass is always greener”. The sun doesn’t automatically shine when the Government dirties its hands the way the media portrays it.
4. Think about the vast history of government spending scandals, and then incidences where the government has been applauded for its frugal spending, which is more numerous? Is the answer significant?
5. “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time”: the press has the ability to create a temporary ‘mob mentality’ with people who don’t take the time to think through the problems themselves when they run away with an idea. Just because it sounds ‘humanitarian’ doesn’t make it so, good, or even the ‘right thing’.
6. Our country came to be precisely in order to limit government control and so prevent abuses by government imposed on its citizens. That has historically been the source of our countries greatness, and this bill is in direct contradiction to that rule.
7. Each of these points can be easily supported against attack, and there are many more strong arguments that can made concerning this bill.
A quick note: We Americans like change. “Change is good”, or so the adage says, right? But isn’t it more true that Change is neither good nor bad? Change can happen for better or for worse, and it takes a discerning eye to tell the difference between the two – not a passing glance at some text and trust in other’s opinions. You have to look at the stuff yourself, or risk adding to the problem.
The Senate Finance Committee bill may be a bit more palatable than Obamacare. Obamacare really is a cruel joke. I’d be furious if I voted for the guy.
Look. I am not a socialist, but one of the reasons we have government, is to protect the people. We need to hold them accountable but we do need government because of corruption. (It’s more like one corruption cancelling out another!)
In reply to the constitutionalist, I bet you’re a good Christian too. Is your favorite gospel verse where Jesus says “every man for himself,” “not my problem,” “charity is for suckers” or “move to Russia”. Just wondering what a good Christian would do. Can you teach me?
People say that they don’t want the government involved in the nation’s health care. Excuse me, but they already are. The military has government provided health care, veterans have government provided health care, members of Congress and their staffs participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program along with active and retired federal employees. So, be aware that the government is, and has been for some time, involved in providing health care.
If we have to pay for mothers to have their babies killed, I guess there’s no reason we shouldn’t have to pay for people to learn how to kill themselves.
You go constitutionalist! says:
In reply to the constitutionalist, I bet you’re a good Christian too. Is your favorite gospel verse where Jesus says “every man for himself,” “not my problem,” “charity is for suckers” or “move to Russia”. Just wondering what a good Christian would do. Can you teach me?
WHY do you automatically ASSume that constitutionalist is a christian? If you will reach the scriptures carefully for yourself, you will see that Jesus did not come to this world to change governments, but to save people. Come on!! don’t make this discussion about something that it’s not.
Having been to government seminars devoted to nationalized health care back when Hilary was chairing the process, all I can report is that any universal health care system MUST ration health care and deny care. All of the big thinkers in this know that must be the case.
OK, accepting that, I mostly worry about the effect on medical research, progress and innovation. A system run to contain costs won’t gamble on new and better methods to save lives. Without a profit motive, there is no drive to excellence. Yes, individual doctors will do their utmost best, but I fear that our progress in medicine will be stalled.
There are other alternatives, none are perfect. I like what Clark Howard proposes.
indeed, opponents to healthcare reform are throwing the kitchen sink. if you have to lie for your cause, really, how moral can it be?
Okay. Private insurers deny people with preexisting conditions because they cost a lot more to insure. The government will take these expensive people and somehow do it cheaper? Someone give me a calculator.
The simple fact re: page 425 is that if the President is right and prevention works, it will just result in more old people who need the most expensive care and costs will skyrocket.
regarding the post about Jesus–I think Jesus wants a cheerful giver not one where the government puts a gun to your head and says since you have been blessed more than others we can now steal your money and give it to others- I do not think Jesus wanted his followers to give their money to Rome and let Rome decide who gets help by buying votes using ACORN. I like taking the middle man out and give directly to those in need.
Well said, John.
Hey, you missed the part about opting for your own health care…. that’s part of the “legend” and you left it out. Where’s the answer for that??
K Miller –
Individuals would still be able to opt for their own health care coverage:
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=333069697522201
John…Your points make more sense than anybody’s! Our illustious, “professional” media has regressed over the years to not much more than sensationalisitc, fear-mongerers. But they wouldn’t still be doing business that way unless the American people kept biting the carrots they lay out. So many seem so anxious to glom onto a short piece of the whole truth and take off w/ it, spewing their own form of negativity and arrogance w/ it….as long as it supports “their” view!
The healthcare reform bill doesn’t sit well w/ me either on several levels but I’ve been around long enough to know the truth lies somewhere in the middle on most things and this is no different. For anyone to come out with the statement that it is encouraging suicide among the elderly is so rediculous it’s pitiful.
Having worked in hospice care for 5 years, I can tell you that until the hospice concept finally got here, the word “death” was not up for much discussion. Yet, 100 years ago, people died in their homes, surrounded by loved ones. It was viewed as a natural part of the cycle of life. As technology grew, the personal side of the dying process declined. Many people are resusitated against their will or because of poorly laid out communication, only to live w/ more pain, suffering and no quality of life. It’s not done “for their own good”. It’s done as protocol because of the fear the medical institutions have of lawsuits. Does anyone remember Terri Shivo? How many of us would answer “yes” if we were asked if we wanted to remain in a constant, vegetative state? When you’re being resusitated isn’t the time to figure that out. If information is correct, it’s power and the elderly have every right to have it explained to them. The bureaucratic, red tape of the healthcare system is confusing enough in general but esp. for them.
It would sure be an amazing change to see everyone actually take the time to study BOTH sides of an issue before they go spouting off. It’s definately not helping the situation and we’re better than that. COME ON PEOPLE….USE YOUR HEADS!
Can anyone believe the brain-dead person who suggested that Jesus Christ would be in favor of centralized government and national health care? I think it possible that all socialist-leaning people have a mental illness – They think it’s the governments job to do good things for people. BULL SH**! Their only job is to protect each citizens self-evident rights and mediate grievences when offences occur. When spiritual leaders tell believers to “love one another, and give sacrificially” it encourages voluntary morality – Nothing wrong with that! But, it is neither love nor sacrifice nor moral when a Government forces their own brand of social morality upon its people. Stupid, short-sighted people annoy me.
Oh, and by the way, This country is full of stupid people.
As for the person who suggests we look at BOTH SIDES of the issue – You have fallen prey to a socialist mind game – Progressives, liberals and socialists do not believe in absolute truth of any kind, they only believe in outcomes. To them, truth and goodness are beneficial outcomes they create from their ever-evolving good intentions. Their beliefs are summarized phrases like, “Oh Universal Healthcare – that’s a great idea – it would certainly help a lot of people! So, how do we get from here to there?”
On the other hand, an intelligent, principled thinker summarizes his thoughts much differently, saying things like: “It makes no difference whether a lot of people will be helped or not, that’s not the issue… The only question is whether or not it is the self-evident responsibility of government to get involved in such an issue.”
It is the classic misguided conflict between pragmatism and principle. Pragmatists cannot grasp deep seated principle… they don’t have the mental capacity to do so. Their only intrest is in implementing whatever beneficial outcomes that excite them – and they are happy to use the largess of government to facilitate their aims. It’s not that they don’t care about the philosophical self-evident truths articulated in the constitution and other sound and sacred documents; they do not have the mental capactiy to comprehend such things.
When I hear a person listen to a political debate and say something like, “Oh, let’s step back and look at BOTH SIDES of the issue before passing judgment” – I roll my eyes, know that person is about to sacrifice their principled intellect at the altar of pragmatic blindness.
The pragmatic politicial always says, “Since we can’t agree on principle, we can at least agree on outcome; right?” – The correct answer is “WRONG!” – There is never a mandate to agree on an outcome if the principle is wrong. Political debate is not supposed to have TWO SIDES… It only has ONE… Self Evident Truth.
The purpose of writing a constitution is to require every political debate throughout all generations to reach back and prove it’s unarguable connection to the self-evident princples outlined in its pages.
I have never met an intelligent, philosophical liberal progressive, and I doubt I ever will. I have yet to meet one who has the brain skills to comprehend the concept of self-evident, absolute truth. All they want is feel-good outcomes no matter what the cost.
Don’t drink the kool-aid they offer you, my friends.
John (6):
The bill says that one “Advance Care Planning Consultation” every five years will be covered. Nowhere it states that such a consultation is mandatory. That’s how laws work, it’s about what they say, not what they don’t say. Example: The bill requires everyone to own a pink elephant! Where does it say that? Well, where does it say that you DON’T have to own a pink elephant?
And regarding paragraph (3), that just says that you can’t be denied an “Advance Care Planning Consultation” just because your physician talked to you about some of that stuff during a preventive physical examination. That would not count towards your once-in-five-years limit.
It’s amazing how certain political forces twist and intentionally misunderstand sections of this bill.
The bible says if a man will not work then he should not eat 2nd Thessalonians 3:10. The key is “will not”–it doesn’t say cannot. There is a difference between people expecting a free lunch for nothing and people who cannot help themselves and are truly in need. God knows your heart and your intentions. To answer your question, a good Christian will help those in need as God leads them to that need. Its in obedience to the call of Christ on that persons life that he shall walk–not what you think he should do.
I was horrified when I first stumbled on this sight, but proceeded to send my urgent message of NOT voting for the health care bill. It is so encouraging to see so many of you level headed people out there that are against it. Please contact all of your officials and let them know how you feel. They are all in fear of next year’s election outcome. If they don’t go with the will of the people, then vote them out. By the way, my family and many wonderful people I know, give to many charities, by their choice, not by force. There will be no wealth to spread around, when this administration is finished with us, and therefore willful giving will also go away. The numbers of people uninsured has been falsified, but that is no surprise. Many lies to reach a goal, is a goal we must avoid! No one is turned away from emergency care, but that is not told of in the media. Canadians, and British have been desperately trying to warn us to stay away from nationalized health care, but their messages have certainly not gotten far. Please call, write, email your senators and congressman, especially the blue dog democrats, who are on the fence! They may be our only hope.
Carrie says “Canadians, and British have been desperately trying to warn us to stay away from nationalized health care” this seems strange, most of the surveys taken in our little backward country say that the majority of Brits are proud of our “socalist” health service and would hate to see it heading down the profit before care, insurance company dominated American route.
But hey, each to their own…
Long-term strategies to address the cost of health care and uninsureds need to be proposed. However, shoving a half-baked piece of legislation through without appropriate discussion, debate, and modifications is irresponsible.
I believe those opposing this plan do themselves a disservice by raising the specter of non-existent bogeymen. There are enough REAL gremlins in the bill including the proposal(s) to pay for it to make us mere mortals (Chuck Norris excluded of course) extremely concerned and worried.
I trained and then worked for 10 years as a Paralegal. We were always taught that “shall” in legal terms was a mandatory statement. The counseling is mandatory.
And while it is not mandatory that patients refuse care, you better bet your last dollar that under a government controlled health care system, they will 1) be encouraged to forgo life saving care by being counseled about “resources” and 2) they’ll be in line long enough that they won’t have the ability to get life saving care.
I am a Christian and I think Jesus would say “if your brother falls down help him up, if he cannot walk on his own let him lean on you, if he cannot stand carry him, if he doesn’t want to walk leave him where he is”. After all its his choice. I don’t make much $$ I work for the Salvation Army, but I give about 20-40% of my take home pay, whether it be tithes the child I sponsor in Bangladesh or the guy that’s holding a sign at a red light. The Bible says if someone asks-give, doesn’t leave much to discussion, that is the way we take care of people. If this goes through I will have a lot less money to give as I choose from my heart and the leading of the spirit and may even come to resent the people that are benefiting from the money the govt. takes from me. I already struggle with the people on welfare that could easily work if they went looking for work, why should they support themselves when the govt. will take care of them with the money I earned with my sweat. If people work and pay into the “system” for their latter years I have no problem with them getting the help they need, or if they aren’t able to work give them what they need. that’s what social security and Medicare is for. If they put in give them what they deserve, if not likewise, if they truly weren’t able then give them what they need, but don’t make those choices for me. The job of the Federal
Govt. is to protect our nation from foreign invaders (where I classify ILLEGAL immigrants), to protect the individual rights of the states, and to uphold the Constitution. NOT to take care of the individual citizens or regulate morality. This country was founded as a republic for a reason, if you don’t know the difference between a democracy and a republic here it is in short. In a republic the people (by popular vote) elect representatives into govt. to do the will of their constituents. In a democracy the people elect into power politicians to do what they think is best for the people (not always by popular vote ie. the electoral college) This nation was founded as a republic, meaning the founding fathers believed that the individual citizens were smart enough to make their own decisions and govt. would have very little to do with their lives on a day to day basis. Now we have a democracy where a minority of elites think they know better than I do how I should run my life, and they are better qualified to make decisions for me than I am. I don’t know but if you ask me even though their elected it sounds like the aristocracy of Europe before the people got tired of it and revolted.
To all of you Christians out there preaching about helping out your fellow man when they ask… Teach a man to fish…!!!!
It is more cruel to make someone, or allow someone, to be dependant than to help them help themselves. Certainly, give them aid when needed, but dont let them continue to be a victim. This healthcare bill will allow people to continually take advantage of the system, and suppress those of us who are ambitious enough to take care of ourselves.
If you actually read what I wrote, that’s exactly what i was saying. I work at an adult rehab center where part of the program is “work therapy”. Everybody in the program works 40 hrs a week in our warehouse processing, or helping on our donation trucks, that way they pay for their program and get work experience they can put on a resume.
We have as strong a reason to be upset by all this junk, concerning health care, government mandated caps have bean used before, why not in this category too? why dose a hospital need 500 or more a night, why dose the doctor have to have millions in malpractice insurance, why do we have to spend 500 for an ambulance ride, why must we have to spend such large amounts for script when other countries get it for less from the same company! I am a vet and have a week heart, now down to twenty five percent, yet at sixty one do you think I will get a transplant? Think not why would that happen and give me ten more years, thats probably my life expectancy any how. That will be the view awaiting everyone. remember it will come, some young buck will cut you out. Thats your new life!
firstly, well said John.
secondly, Obama is a bully and I don’t play with Bullies. I am a doctor and I will not have a gun put to my head. I am already receiving less than 1/3 of my billing from medicare and all insurances follow, yet I provide free or reduced rate care to many including weekends and nights (try to get a plumber to come out in an emergency for a hundred bucks, yet medicaid expects me to do my work at 2 am for $20.) most of us refuse to take another pay cut-not a penny less!
I, among many other relatively silent docs, will just say no! no more pay cuts after 13 years post grad education, 120 hour work weeks, 250,000 dollars in debt. I wouldn’t send my kids through all that, only to become targets for the lawyers lottery, would you?
if healthcare was Obamas “top domestic priority”, he shouldn’t have already blown 3 generations of future earnings bailing out his pet projects and paying off his debt to the unions (who are just figuring out they’re getting screwed, by the way)…
healthcare solved:
FIRST allow doctor’s and other providers to deduct directly (no tricks) the difference from government pay or no pay and the 80th percentile of the charged amount. sure, docs who provide charity would pay virtually nothing in taxes but you’d be getting what you want for it with an army of willing providers!
SECOND: eliminate malpractice- don’t just cap awards- cancel the reverse lottery of which lawyers take 30%. it never corrects bad doctors anyway. instead allow complaints heard by boards who suspend specific privileges until reeducation is proven.
THIRD: if you want a policy for unexpected outcomes, pay for one, or provide a clear policy.
FOURTH: regulate profiteering by insurance companies and wall street- they do nothing to advance care and only suck it dry. I don’t think the free market theory holds water when the payments to providers are regulated, methods of practice are governed, and the gov’t already tells/regulates how profits can be made (OIG)
but real healthcare reform isn’t on the table!
Thanks doc. nice to hear from your side of the street. For memory, the reason they have to have all that malpractice ins. is due to “ambulance chasers” lawyers that make all their money by convincing people that they can score big on a suit for something, and don’t get me wrong I believe if there is a gross negligence case that the injured party or their survivors should be compensated, but a large number are frivolous. And that is one thing that drives up the cost of healthcare is the cost of the ins., just like prices in a dept. store. A lady fell and broke her leg in a Target (if I remember right) and was awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars in a lawsuit, way more than I think med. bills and “suffering” should have been anyway, the kicker is that she tripped over her own child!!! Who pays for the suit, all the customers that shop there after the fact, and the ins. premiums go up and all the other stores get ins. to cover the same thing and their prices go up and so on. Its the same with healthcare
Great, let’s all allow “Big Brother” to encourge grandad and granma to commit suicide.
How wonderful…Something evil is happening to America. Wake up!
The following is text from my constant battle with my good friend who is a right wing hate monger that loves to spread the lies.
Now you are really going insane. Read the questions asked and tell me what your answer would be? They are trying to help people that need health care, the ones that don’t have it. Get your head out of the clouds and STOP listening to the hate mongers.
I will give you 3 exampleS of questions with answers because I know you are noT capable of answering honestly.
1. Mr. President, you are building low income housing to help the poor. ARE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY GOING TO MOVE INTO THEM? NO, WE ARE BUILDING THEM TO IMPROVE LIVING STANDARDS FOR THEM.
2. Mr. President, the minimum wage is going yo be 7.25, will you and your staff work for minimum wage? NO, WE ARE DOING THIS TO HELP PEOPLE THAT ARE STRUGGLING.
3. Mr. President, You really want health care reform. If Universal health care is passed are you and your family and congress going to drop theirs and enroll in the new one. AGAIN, NO, NO, NO,. EVERYTHING THAT IS DONE TO HELP THE NEEDY IS DONE TO IMPROVE THEIR LIVES. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD STEP BACK.
I am guessing not too many of you have ever been in THE position of NOT having coverage for a dying child.
Go easy.
One day that child might be yours.
So all of those opposed to “government healthcare” are ready to drop social security and medicare??
If government health care is so great, why is it so hard to find a physician who will take medicare patients???????
Does anyone here know what “Advanced Care Planning” means? It means a Living Will, telling people what your wishes are should you be unable to. (remember Terry Schaivo?) If any one of you had every had to deal with the health care system and a loved one who was in a vegetative state, you’d be happy that they were including this. It has nothing to do with ending your life.
I’ve read all these comments and most of you I am guessing didn’t read what this is about and are just grandstanding.
“Shall” in legal terms does not mean mandatory, “will” in legal terms means mandatory
Doctor says he works 120 hrs a week I’m guessing you don’t golf, or are an intern we are still trying to get those hrs lower for you guys and gals, or heaven forbid you are lying; for the $250,000 you say you owe you might try that government plan that pays off you loans if you work in a rural area.
Urban Legions is just says that this bill is not going to push suicide on seniors, and I’m surprised that anyone who says they are intelligent would believe that Congress would push a bill that does. The scare tactics are at work paid for by private for profit health care insurance Corporations, Big Pharma, and private for profit Hospitals, don’t fall for it, its a line of crap.
With regards to the health care bill, I just recently listened to a very insightful interview conducted by, former US Senator, Fred Thompson and his guest Betsy McCoy[former Lt. Governor for New York]as they closely examined this bill and especially page 425. I am finding serious discrepancies between the facts, and the seemingly leftist liberal views of this supposed unbiased website that I once respected, and known as Snopes.com. It would be wonderful if we could get back to presenting the facts and not putting on own political biased spins upon them. Thank you very much!
“This bill is horrible! I don’t care if this end of life crap is not required! The feds HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING IN THE HEALTH CARE BUSINESS!!!!!!!!”
Thank God for the socialized medicine programs provided by the goverment.
My mother’s suffering at the end of her life was greatly lessened by the assistance of Medicare. Without it, insurance would have been too expensive and she would have suffered far more than she did.
In my own case, I thank God for the nation’s socialized medicine programs. You see, without the VA, I could not afford to buy the medicine I need (no generic is avaliable). (Or didn’t you know that the VA was a socialized medicine program)? I get excellent care through the VA.
The bills’ working through congress don’t replace the insurance we now have, they will only cover those who don’t have nor can afford insurace. (Wouldn’t be wonderful if it brought all of our health insurance costs down)?
My company’s costs for employee health insurance is a growing concern. At this point, we pay a fixed amount each month and the employee pays the rest. Some are paying several hundred a month. I don’t know how they are making it. What are they going to do in future years?
If we don’t do something soon, only a few of us, including most of you against it, will be able to afford to buy only a basic, minimal policy. So don’t be too quick to take the line being force-fed by the pharmaceutical industries. They are one of THE MOST profitable profitable sector in the United States. And don’t let them tell you that they will lose money if new legistation is enacted. After the new Medicare drug program went into effect in 2006, their profits increased by 8 BILLION.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m tired of paying for other peoples greed. It’s time we do something good for everyone.
I knew it was bogus but needed some proof to send on to all to whom the original email had been sent. Put this with the black helicopters and Obama being an alien, probably an illegal one since there is no proof he ever got a visa or acquired citizenship.
To Constitutionalist: What a cold-hearted, uncaring person you are. Certainly glad I don’t have to associate with you.And you have no understanding of how government works or is supposed to work. And the Russia comment was idiotic. Do you have any compassion for anyone?
What happened in your upbringing to make you such an insensitive, cruel person?
the part of the bill that allows for citizens to set up their own advanced directives is a good idea. It does not tell us how you want to die. So stop that stupid argument. When you claim this is the purpose of this, it shows how truly stupid and mean-spirited you are. My advance directive allows me to pick 2 people who can speak for me and make my medical decisions for me when I cannot speak for myself. THAT IS ALL. So stop being stupid.
We are a family of three, with a good income, and yet, while my husband’s employer offers health insurance, we could not afford it and still be able to pay for rent, food, clothing, etc. Why is it that, should we have chosen to have more children or for my husband to lay about and not work, that we would be assured of proper medical care, should we need it. At this very moment, my eight year old daughter is on our couch with a fevrr over 102, which she has had for two days, and we can’t take her to the doctor. The movie ’swing vote’ has a line in it, in which a man asks, ‘how is it that we kive in the richest country in the world, and some of us can’t afford to live here?’ Such true statements make you think, or at least they should.
A simple solution would be to allow families such as ours to buy into the Medicaid system and pay according to a scale, taking into account the average family’s monthly expenses, and adjust the rates, premiums, and co-pays accordingly…food for thought…
I applaud the comments made by John #7 and Jon #22 & 23!
My husband and I are both retired military; we have excellent benefits through Tri-Care and also through Medicare.
Early on, we both drew up living wills; supplied the information to our doctors, and have designed two individuals who should be contacted in addition to our own names, to discuss carrying out our wishes.
If more people WERE counseled on a periodic basis; more encouraged to get these directives in place, it would help cut down on both the confusion and costs when a critical illness and end of life is now evident.
My doctors have thanked us for volunteering this information because they say it will help them not only adhere to them, but minimize any potential law-suits that might come from a family member that might disagree with the course of action.
If the insurance companies were held to a ‘cap’ on profit, so they weren’t gouging the people they’re insuring, it would surely help cut the cost of health-care.
My daughter-in-law is a doctor; she’s spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get her degree to practice medicine. We should remember the liability insurance doctors have to carry; mal-practice insurance fees, and the heavy investment these people make, just to make certain there is health-care available to start with.
I’m grateful for every doctor; nurse, technician, and medical research individual who has devoted their lives to serve the rest of us.
How do these people think all of this will be paid for. The only money this government has is the money they take from us as taxes.
The Senate and House of Representative body should be included as participants in this plan if it goes through.
Senator Ted Kennedy has put an exclusion clause in this bill for all of our congressman. What a bunch of jerks we’ve chosen to represent us.
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never
failed a single student before,
but had once failed an entire class.
——————————————–
That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would
be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on
Obama’s plan”.
All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no
one would fail and no one would receive an A.
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little
were happy.
As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had
studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free
ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D!
No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted
in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that
socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the
effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no
one will try or want to succeed.
Could not be any simpler than that
What a laugh, gee I love this site! Seriously though, many of us in other countries are very concerned about the wellbeing of our American friends.
Personally, I think you’re in good hands now, although the damage has already been done and it will take time and patience for you to recover.
Try to stay positive, $ave what you can, only buy what you really need for the time being and care more for your children, know where they are and what they’re up to; eat less rubish, exercise more (try walking to the local shops for a change, leave the car at home) and don’t forget those who made your life possible. Love your parents and grandparents, your family and friends… stick together, be there for one-another.
Don’t worry about Paris, Britney and others you don’t even know, concern yourself with how much better your own life is going to be when you get your act together. What have you done to help someone else lately?
With love from the land of Oz. xx
I have never seen a dumber bunch of wingnuts in my life. Hide, quick, the Martians will be landing shortly.
Why don’t you all go back and read what’s being said in the article about what the bill REALLY says, instead of what professional liars like Fred Thompson and Betsy McCaughey (NOT McCoy) have to say. They should be ashamed.
I’m sick of hearing people throw around that word “Socialism” when they don’t have a clue what it really means. Socialism must be anything you don’t like. You don’t want socialized medicine? Then don’t ever take social security and Medicare, and if you already are, give it back! If you’re a veteran, don’t take VA care! If you’re disabled, sorry about your luck, just get over it! And be sure to look forward to the day when machines will keep you alive artificially for as long as they can wring one more tortured breath out of you, because you think it’s socialism to sit down with experts (if YOU choose!) and learn about your RIGHTS regarding end-of-life directives. Check it on FactCheck.org also, but I guess they’re evil liberal socialists too because they don’t just swallow whole what the talk radio club belches up. Why are you people even here if you’ve already got your tiny little minds made up?
So glad I live in a different country where my taxes pay for my health care. Health Care should not be a business – its a right of every resident in every country. It’s what taxes should be spent on, not millitary infrastructure.
The first thing to do with all our politicians is for them to take a mandatory 10% pay decrease like my husband had to to keep his company he worked at for 14 years but this still didn’t his company.
Imagine all the tax money saved by all politicians taking a 10 % decrease.
As far as going to someone to counsel you on advanced directives that should be up to your family doctor and family members not to just walk in an office and sit down with someone you don’t know that says well this is what you need to do. HOW COLD!!!! THE EXCLUSION THAT THE POLITICIANS PUT IN THE HEALTHCARE BILL IS WRONG. WE ARE PAYING FOR THEM WITH OUR TAXES SO THEY SHOULD BE ON THE RECIEVING END OF THE PLAN THAT THE THINK IS WONDERFUL. NO MORE PRIVATE MEDICAL INSURANCE FOR THEM. OBAMA’S HEALTH CARE REFORM FOR ALL POLITICIANS!!!!!!
I’m just dying for the government to take over my healthcare.
SYS, your comment nails it on the the head. My biggest fear is that the furture of the USA is dependent on it’s people to be fully informed and educated on the issues. The majority of the comments I’ve read tonight are from human “lemmings” that depend on someone telling them how to think. I pray that these people will begin speaking and thinking without being brain washed by the fake neocons.
If this health bill is so GREAT, why doesn’t Congress make all its members switch to it immediately when it is passed???
This provision, to me, does NOT advocate assissted suicide in any way. I think it’s horribly cruel to THINK that religious people would equate end-of-life education and having a living will with committing suicide! If it was up to some religious people, we’d all have feeding tubes up our noses until we’re nothing but bones! The senseless portion of the religious population want people to be born in pain, live in pain, and die in pain! I hope they each get what they want for others themselves!!!
49 million people in the U.S. don’t have health insurance. And not because they’re all too lazy to take care of themselves. My 54 year old wife has a pre-existing condition and has been turned down five times by insurance companies. We’ve asked to have her condition excepted (we don’t expect it to actually require anymore care) but the companies say they can’t. I’m self-employed and pay for my own insurance. If the government doesn’t step in, we remain a car accident away from bankruptcy. Remember, it’s one out of six Americans without insurance. And it could be you next, or your kids or parents.
There are many solutions to health care costs in America and one of the is NOT to totally enact a complete government run system (especially seeing how the government has run Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security etc.) One way is to revamp the frivilous law suits to reduce the liability insurance that Doctors need. Another way is to limit the money someone can collect with a medical mal-practice suit (how can a common person be paid millions of dollars for an injury or even death by a Doctor?) A life is PRICELESS…. so why would a judge order a multi million settlement to an average person? Limit the amount of money awarded in law suits!!!! Of course most people who sue say, “it’s not for the money, it’s so no one else has to suffer the way we have.” That’s bull! Another way is to revamp Insurance Companies!
See….there are OTHER SOLUTIONS.
jb
Bob,
Politicians are NOT people! We The People are subjects to the elite (ya right) Politicians that don’t have to lower themselves to peasants health care, and don’t have to pay Social Security, and don’t have to follow the Constitution of the United States, etc. etc. Guess what Bob? We The People WILL HAVE THE FINAL SAY!!!!
Mark,
Sounds like you would agree that the Insurance Companies need to be re-done not the entire health care system!
JB
Hey SYS -
Have YOU looked at Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security lately? The Government sure has taken good care of “OUR” money haven’t they? Just wait! If they pass a Government Run Healthcare package, you won’t even be able to afford a computer to put your ridiculous ideas on! Wake Up Wingnut (what ever that is supposed to mean).
JB
Choice is what freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is all about. The corporate USA has messed up every corner of society that it has stuck it nose into (interloper) and has used the 14th amendment to usurp powers of the states and the people.
This whole plan is wrong and I can but think there are devious minds that wrote.
It doesn’t seem anyone understands the real fact. It doesn’t matter what we think anymore. This government is going to pass whatever bill it wants.
We the people were against the ‘bail out’ and the ’stimulus’. Did our government representatives listen to us then? What makes you think they will now?
private profit does NOT belong in the health care business.
I’m not that smart, but I DO know that PHYSICIANS – NOT the patient – will have the FINAL say in end of life planning. This bill helps to get people USED to the IDEA of a possible time they may have to take steps to end their life.
There is only ONE who can end life rightly – GOD.
The NEXT STEP in this process of getting people used to the idea of ending their OWN LIFE when they “feel” there is no other way. The FINAL step is for the GOVERNEMNT to dictate what will happen to you.
I don’t believe in life support if you are brain dead – maybe, if it is your wish, even when you are close to death. Again, God knows what plans HE has.
This health care plan SMELLS BAD in that it covers the evil intent with “good intentions.”
THINK – People, PLEASE USE YOUR MIND and REASON. Think of those you KNOW who had a PHYSICIAN tell the patient they HAD to go to a nursing home or have help at home (a good idea, sometimes, but not ALWAYS).
THINK – You are not feeling well. You think you will NEVER AGAIN feel well. But somehow you pull through to see great days, even years. BUT, while you were in your weakened state a physician tells you you should THINK about ending your life, you may just be weak-minded IN THAT MOMENT to agree.
JUST THINK!! The Government hasn’t done ANYTHING completely right YET – IRA’s Medicare, Social Security, LACK OF HELP FOR VETERANS – to name a FEW.
And what right does a President have who can’t even PROVE – through a birth certificate, college enrollment forms, etc. etc. etc. to even BE our leader?
I’s like to see the language of the entire bill gone over with a fine-tooth comb by competent devil’s advocates. We need to keep a constant eye on our “representatives” in Washington.
Your are reading more into page 425 than is actually there. This section refers to the extension of a 1999 bill that allows the medical profession to inform a patient their right to have a living will. Such a document allows a patient to request that should the patient become severely ill the medical caregiver is not to use extreme measures to keep the patient alive in a vegative state.
. . . and whence, pray, will the physicians, nurses, hospitals, etc., needed to support universal health care, come from?
(24) Another John says:
“And regarding paragraph (3), that just says that you can’t be denied an “Advance Care Planning Consultation” just because your physician talked to you about some of that stuff during a preventive physical examination…
It’s amazing how certain political forces twist and intentionally misunderstand sections of this bill.”
Another John –
You may be doing some misunderstanding yourself.
Where does it say “your physician” will counsel you? That’s your erroneous assumption.
Directly above your citation, you’ll find this:
‘‘(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is—
a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1));
and
‘‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.”
You’re not going to be counseled by a doctor you trust.
You’re going to be counseled by a doctor (or even an “assistant”) the government approves and/or appoints.
I have no problem (and I’m sure most others wouldn’t either), having my personal physician counsel me. But that’s not what the case will be.
Please show us where it says it’s “your physician” and “your choice”?
I think this bill would be the worst thing for people who already has health problems they will never get the same treatment. VOTE NO PEOPLE HELP US STOP THIS BILL NOW
Yes, I’m a Republican, but hear me out.
I read the section of the Social Security Act that is mentioned in “Health Care Bill” and here is my understanding:
No, page 425 does not require an end of life or advanced care discussion every five years. It appears to me that it DOES require an end of care discussion based on cost.
For example, if I read the bill correctly, it refers to paragraph 2, 3 and 4 of SSA 1861, which discuss the cost of long-term care and so forth. Basically, if Social Security deems that you do not need long term care in the hospital, they will pay for cheaper care in home. If you qualify.
I believe the Health Care Bill is stating that if you haven’t had an advanced care discussion with your physician, when you hit the point of needing long term care you WILL have that discussion with a physician.
Call me crazy, but that is what I understand the bill to be saying.
re: #52 ahoht05
It wasn’t a socialist mentality that doomed that class; it was the mean-spirited, spiteful individuals who said “screw-it, I’m not doing it anymore”. Instead of staying on the path they knew to be the right thing and continuing to achieve as they always had, they took their ball and went home.
Ask me who I have less respect for? The bottom of the class who will never amount to anything anyway (just like that same segment of our society), or the high achievers who decided out of spite to quit? The real losers are those in the middle, those who did the best they could, those who would have succeeded if not for just a little bit of help from those in a position to provide it.
I have a 12 yr old grandson who is 100% pacemaker dependent. He has two check-ups a year (just checking the generator), every couple of years an echogram. What is his future in this new health care plan. Will he have to BEG for a pacemaker. When he reaches 65 (assuming the government ALLOWS him to do so) will he be able to get a new pacemaker then? He is old enough to know what his future is without a pacemaker and he hears the news and is scared to death.
I never thought our country could be so gullable as to even consider such a devistating healrh care plan that would hurt so many people. I hope Americans will wake up and at least read the bill itself to see the facts staring in their faces. I have read it and I am sraced to death that American legislators will not see through the camoflage this bill posseses that will take away our rights under The constitution!!!!!
OUR BASIC FREDOM TO LIFE will NO LONGER EXIXT!!!!
Who up there said that Medicare was wonderful for their mother? I’m glad your mother had an easy time with Medicare because I’ve dealt with them numerous times for friends, family and patients (I used to work in a chiropractor’s office) and I can tell you that getting Medicare to pay for anything is like pulling teeth.
Medicaid is even worse.
And I know that it’s difficult to get VA benefits too because my father and my friend’s father are both vets and they’ve had a heck of a time signing up and receiving health care.
Are you sure you’re telling the truth about the VA and Medicare or are you just trying to make it sound cozy and nice so that you can try to convince someone that the health care bill is a great idea.
By the way, in case all of you who support this dreadful bill missed it, Massachusetts has a similar health care plan to this bill here…and they are in constant danger of not having enough money. In fact, they just dropped 30k LEGAL immigrants from their health care because they can’t afford to pay for everyone.
If this so-called health care fails in one single state, what do you think is going to happen if the whole country gets on the same plan?
I can tell you it’s not going to be sunshine and rainbows and ponies and nobody dies anymore. Go ahead and Google “Massachusetts Health Care Plan” and see what pops up.
The top articles are all about how they are running out of money…and the stupid thing has only been up since 2006. It’s failing there and it will fail nationwide.
If you don’t sign on to the government health care plan, you, as a tax paying law abiding U.S. citizen are fined $2,500 but if you are a non-U.S non–law abiding Mexican who jumps the border fence, you get free health care……the costs of which could have been appropriated for elderly U.S. citizens who spent their lives paying taxes and who now are relegated to what amounts to financial euthanasia!!! I am now questioning if I even want to be an American anymore. My God….how can you as fellow Americans elect people who even consider such laws!? God help us.
Leave it liberals in government to destroy what works for 80% in order to build something that doesn’t work for 96%. My God people, they are going to mandate health care for illegals in our country. Mexicans will be jumping the border by the millions and because of people like Obama, Rangal, Pelosi and the rest of these Marxists, we are going to be leaving a bankrupt country to our children and grandchildren. Some change.
I was not aware that if you do not sign up for the National Health Care you would be fined 2,500. I have read some of the things on this bill, but not that part. I understand that you can keep the healthcare that you have, but if you drop out for any reason, then you would have to sign up for the National Health Care. I am a person on Medicare, but I also pay monthly for a plan thru my employer that I retired from under COBRA. This plan is my primary insurer, in addition to the amount they deduct from my Social Security for Medicare. It is also a HMO plan. So far I get good coverage. But if I move to a state that does not honor my insurance, then I would have to drop my Secured Horizons. Would that mean I would have to take the National Health Care. I HOPE NOT!!! Even though my medical is managed thru a Health Care Company (HMO) I have never been denied any operation or procedure,and have a small copay to doctors and for prescriptions. I HOPE THE BILL DOES NOT PASS BECAUSE I DO NOT WHAT A GOVERNMENT AGENCY TELLING MY DOCTORS CARE I CAN HAVE AND WHEN I SHOULD DIE.
GOD WILL DECIDE WHEN I WILL DIE!!!!
Funny is nota word to express anythin in my life anymore. November 5th 2008 I was ask to sever my ties with the company I work for, but since they had to sever ties with 17 other employees they had no one to do my job, so they kept me for 20 hours a week. I lost all my bennifits, vacation, and health care. Here it is 9 months later still no full time work, or health carefor my 2 children or myself. I refuse to take hand outs, no WELFARE, no free lunches, no loans fo my sons college. If they pass this UHC bill I’m told that if I do not have an insurance program I will be charged $2,500.00 for each person in my family. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA hA HA HA! Take me to jail. For the first time in my life I will be a martyer. I raise my own children, and my own fruits and veggies. But I’ll be damned if I am going to pay even more to raise some lazy parents scruff balls.
Oh don’t forget to ask the questions of:
(1) who pays for the people that die or get a nasty infection from the doctors bad diagnosis or operate on the wrong person or do the wrong operation?
(2) is the government going to pay the hospitals and doctors all of the money owed to them that they can’t even pay now?
There are so many questions that will never be answered.
I don’t know that the fine is actually $2,500. I am horrible at math, but the “fine” for not having the “government mandated healthcare” is 2.5% of your income, I believe.
I’ll have to double check the wording in the bill. Also, all companies will now be forced to offer health care to their employees, including part time. Not only will the part time employees get health insurance but so will their families. If the business doesn’t carry health insurance, they will be fined at 8% of their payroll.
Why don’t we just demand that businesses hand over exactly 90% of their profits to the government, while we’re at it.
It’s not like the money would ever be used to research and develop newer and better products, right?
Money is evil! ~EVIL~!!!!!
…that was sarcasm, guys, in case anyone was wondering. ^.^
The “Constitutionalist” comment number 2 is correct. Survival of the fittest. Everyone needs to be able to take care of themselves. It has nothing to do with any religious principals, but using the ability that each of us has to educate ourselves, and actually work. It is not my job to support anyone other than myself, my family, and those who are truly in need of assistance. That does not include uneducated lazy losercrat socialist begging for money on the corner. I for one, and not going to take care of you.
Well this is what we get, a country that does not want God looks for people to save them and they think Obama
is the one. Well they shall see! but probably to late
When you lose your job and exhaust your unemployment benifits,Tell you Congressman how big of a fool you both were
to #76
I think you missed the point or the story, and it really doesn’t matter who you respect or do not respect in this case. It is a matter of just compensation for achievement.
You say you have less respect for those at the top who “took their ball and went home”, but why should they work for A’s that they cannot actually get?
If I were to hire you at my business, and then tell you that you were required to work 40 hrs a week, but I’m only going to pay you for 30 hrs of work, and that you’re going to be taxed and all of your benefits are going to be taken out as normal…would you work the extra ten hours? Would you work as hard for those 10 hours if you did work them? Why would you put that effort into something you aren’t being compensated for? I’m sure you wouldn’t.
So yes, socialism did fail the class…because it fails to give due compensation for effort.
‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri-
tion and hydration.’’. (Page 430, line 23) Who “defines” the word “artificially administered”? Terri Schiavo was alive until the usual suspects defined “artificially administered” for her.
This is America and we should be able to decide not the government what healthcare we have. We have the power of choice and we should have that choice. If the government wants to put into place something so all Americans have health care then great but don’t make make it so that is all we have. If we can pay for the medical insurance for the coverage we want then we should have it. I am on medicare because of a work injury. 5 yrs is too long for a consultation to be paid for. Things change and If I need one to change my long term plans then I need it and should have it. If they decided not to pay for a procedure that I need the pain alone might kill me, the procedures I have are for quality of life not just about pain control. If I could not have them because the government decided that they didn’t want to pay for it then yes it could be a horrible life. Govenment should not have this power of choice each individual should.The power of choice is what disquinishes us from animals.
We ALL should have listened to the answer that Obama gave Joe the plumber. He told us all what he was right then, a socialist. Nuff’ said.
When Congress and the President and his family give up the health care they now have and sign on to what they are ramming down our throats…they I’ll stop bitching!
Why can’t we have the same coverage that the Senators enjoy???? And ,while they are sharing their health care, maybe we can share their retirement plan too. IT’s a hell of a deal compared to what we get and we’re paying the bill !!
Check this out:
http://www.vote.com/mmp_printerfriendly.php?id=1568
A watering down of Medicare is (secretly–shh) in the cards. The wherewithal (physicians, nurses, hospital space, etc.) doesn’t exist to service the entire population.
As things now stand, the medical establishment has to use young residents as slave labor to make ends meet. Twenty-four hour (or more) hospital shifts. Mon dieu. Don’t think I would want to be treated by a young and inexperienced physician in the 23rd hour of his/her shift.
O tempora, o mores.
“Can anyone believe the brain-dead person who suggested that Jesus Christ would be in favor of centralized government and national health care?”
Uhh, you should go back to reading the Bible. Jesus shunned those who kept for themselves and the early church would stone you if you kept anything for yourself.
Health-care must change. I do not see anything in this bill that suggests “suicide”. As a heathcare professional we have been mandated for years to educate/counsel all who come into a hospital, clinic, and medical office. It is extremely wise for all persons to plan in advance how they want to be treated when their life is terminal.
Healthcare has always been rationed. Our tax dollars should go to those “in need” and not neccessarily those “in want”. I am not in favor of all parts of the bill, BUT I am in favor of educating/counseling people to know they have choices in planning their end-of-life care. Peggie
Dottie… You’re the problem with America. Your lack of intelligence and misinformation is exactly what got us into this mess. Do us all a favor and keep watching your American idol on your satellite dish that is paid for by the working class tax dollar and for goodness sake, in 2010 and 2012, DON’T VOTE!
Hey Keith… Dust off your Bible a little bit more. Of course we should help the sick and disabled. But not the lazy and unwilling. Read 2 Thessalonians 3:10.
“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.”
I would rather see the government and the nation as a whole focus more on preventative medicine through education about diet and exercise. Most of the health issues in this country as I see it are self-inflicted and a direct result of unhealthy life styles.
It’s not what “UL” is telling you — it’s what they are NOT telling you, or leaving out of this discussion.
READ pages 425-430 — Consultation can and will result in a ORDER regarding life sustaining treatment — in other words the government CAN ORDER YOUR DEATH – in the event of a life threatening injury/illness.
Wake up America!
Dear Jo,
Do us all a very big favor and give us the EXACT page and quote the EXACT passage where it says what you claim (”that consultation can and will result in a ORDER regarding life sustaining treatment — in other words the government CAN ORDER YOUR DEATH – in the event of a life threatening injury/illness”).
Thanks.
To Urbanlegends:
I DID give you the exact pages, 425-430. One must read it in it’s entirety not cherry pick from ONE page. Here is the link for your convenience:
http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
As all bills, it is written in legalese and cross reference other parts of the bill so one must read it in it’s entirety. Here is part (one must read subparagraph 12):
‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara12
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat13
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
14 interventions.”
Limiting (some or all) interventions by government order — is limiting life.
It cannot be spun any other way.
Page 430:
‘An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (4)
if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.
A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.’
——————————-
Formation of a government ORDER – regarding life sustaining treatment.
The GOVERNMENT can decide who lives and who dies if the patient is terminally ill or injured.
I had a Aunt that was given 3 months to live – she lived for 12 MORE years. Think about the implications of this bill.
Please read it – don’t listen to me or anyone else — just read it.
Jo,
You’re the one doing the cherry-picking.
Your quote:
“(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions.”
Your interpretation:
“Limiting (some or all) interventions by government order — is limiting life.”
The truth:
The paragraph refers to the “level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii)” — so here’s subparagraph (A)(ii) (emphasis added):
“(ii) effectively communicates THE INDIVIDUAL’S PREFERENCES regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care DESIRED BY THE INDIVIDUAL”
Jo writes:
“Please read it – don’t listen to me or anyone else — just read it.”
Given Jo’s misrepresentations above, I must wholeheartedly agree.
It’s not always easy to parse one’s way through the legal and technical mumbo-jumbo, but everyone really SHOULD attempt to do so and come to their own understanding of the bill.
There are links to the full text in my posting above.
As a lawyer who has helped many people write advance health care directives, also known as “living wills”, I think I’m reasonably qualified to state that that is what this portion of the bill is about — making sure that people are aware of their right to have a say in their health care even if they’re incapacitated, and then checking periodically to make sure they haven’t changed their minds.
What I’m wondering is who else has their ferrety little teeth clenched in the mysterious “page 425″. I’ve gotten crank e-mails saying that it requires everything from forced abortion to “homosexuality training” in kindergarten. Did Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity just pick a number that they figured no one would ever read down to?
If all the congressmen/women and all other federal employees have to enroll in the same health plans and go on medicare when they turn 65 just as the average citizen, then I will support this bill. I think that will happen when hell freezes over.
Urbanlegend you are willfully and shamelessly misrepresenting this bill, not I.
“INDIVIDUAL” preferences — is just that, a PREFERENCE.
Preferences are requests and subject to funding. Funding at the DECISION of government.
We have multiple failed government programs, there is not ONE that has worked well. Intelligent people would be wary of another. Especially one, that can dictate who lives or dies if terminally ill or injured.
And it’s not just this bill – BHO himself admits that perhaps we ought to take about alternatives to a operation; “maybe your better off not having the surgery – and taking the pain killer” IN HIS OWN WORDS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo
This in tandem with BHO’s Science Czars affinity for Mass sterilization. A “Planetary Regime” with the power of life and death over American citizens. as he wrote in his 1977 book.
This isn’t about party or pundit – it’s about the power of government over your very life. Please do read the bill, and make sure to cross reference — I’m not the one taking this out of context — but many here are.
Seriously… they picked through the whole bill and this is what they found… this is the worst part of the bill…
All it says is that the government will pay for -not mandate- an appointment with a doctor, designated to discuss your wishes and treatment preferences in the event that you become gravely ill at an elderly age. This is not a bad thing… provides options to people who would otherwise probably not have a medical proxy or any ideas as to how to treat the situation…
find a real gripe and write about that, stop fearmongering!! you make it sound like the President himself is mandating a visit to Dr. Kevorkian… I guess they didn’t teach Critical Reading where you went to school… or did they just teach Critical Propaganda instead?…
Sorry… try again
oh… and for Jo… who cited pg. 430… in a previous post…
the aforementioned “order” that you speak of… is one that is agreed upon by you and your doctor… not an order designated by the government… holy crap… you guys will believe anything!
take the time to look up words that you don’t know… especially if they are in a foreign context… stop scaring people!!! especially if you don’t have a clue…
Jo,
You wrote:
“Urbanlegend you are willfully and shamelessly misrepresenting this bill, not I.”
And you’ve got a lot of nerve. There’s only one of us taking an advocacy position for or against this bill, and that’s you.
I’m all for people, including you and everyone who reads this, opposing the legislation on any reasonable grounds. But you must STOP misrepresenting what it says.
You specifically wrote:
“READ pages 425-430 — Consultation can and will result in a ORDER regarding life sustaining treatment — in other words the government CAN ORDER YOUR DEATH – in the event of a life threatening injury/illness.”
I proved you absolutely wrong on this. I proved, by quoting the referenced subparagraph that you left out in your quote (while complaining of “cherry-picking by others!), that the “order” spoken of in pages 425-430 consists of the patient’s own stated wishes, not any requirement or set of requirements imposed by the government.
Nothing in the entire bill, let alone pages 425-430, says the government can “order your death.” I defy you to prove otherwise.
Again, if you are afraid of this bill, if you don’t like the changes it proposes, if you’re worried on reasonable grounds that it will change health care for the worse, please DO ask your representatives in Congress not to pass it.
But please STOP misrepresenting what it says.
Oh wow Glen — this IS a GOVERNMENT bill.
Sorry but only a IDIOT (or the gullible) would think that an “order” in a GOVERNMENT bill will be at the sole discretion of a doctor. That’s like saying I can choose to invest my OWN FICA or SS with no government intrusion.
Won’t happen.
Urbanlegend:
You choose a position when you defend the indefensable. I posted the relevant sections for brevity, and I asked the viewer to read it and decide for themselves. Clearly, I have been honest. You on the other hand, either cannot comprehend the language, or are unwilling to.
I reiterate — if the government has the power over *individual* medical procedures for life threatening illness or accidents — that means they have the ability to DENY coverage.
What would be the result of government denial of coverage concerning a life threatening health issue??
Death.
Follow this time?
http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-in-03-id-like-to-see-a-single-payer-health-care-plan/
Obama:
“I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program. I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its Gross National Product on health care cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that’s what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.”
Jo,
You seem to be the one unable or unwilling to comprehend.
Your original argument was NOT that the government can impose a death sentence on the patient by denying coverage. You have changed the subject.
Your original argument, which I proved wrong but you won’t acknowledge it, was that specific language which you cited from pages 425-430 provides for the creation of a “GOVERNMENT order” regarding end-of-life treatment. IT DOES NOT. It provides for the creation of an individual PATIENT’S order as to what kind of end-of-life care they do or do not want.
You can rave all you want about the government killing people by denying coverage (which is also bogus, but that’s a separate argument), but it has NOTHING to do with the passages YOU quoted from pp 425-430.
Urbanlegend’s utter BS….
Wrong, wrong, wrong. (as usual)
My original post of 9:10 am said:
“READ pages 425-430 — Consultation can and will result in a ORDER regarding life sustaining treatment — in other words the government CAN ORDER YOUR DEATH – in the event of a life threatening injury/illness.”
I stand by it, until you prove otherwise — which you have not.
But PLEASE keep at me with the trivial semantics — it will attract more people to actually READ the bill — and for that I DO THANK you!
Did anyone read further? Did you notice the part on page 430 something that talked about physician performance reports regarding end of life care and state advisory panels to formulate standards for end of life care? How will that not lead to rationing? Anyone familiar with formularies for prescription drugs whereby the doctors are advised (coerced?)to prescribe only drugs on the formulary? Doctors are pressured by performance reports and formularies.
Obama in a NYT interview talks about very similar sounding panels making “difficult” decisions about who should receive care and that care for the very old and sick represent 80% of health care costs. My mother died a few weeks ago at home without any medical intervention, which I am grateful for. I know that she wouldn’t have wanted to kept alive on a respirator but I never would have agreed to withhold hydration or pain relief. I am very familiar with HCPs, living wills, DNR orders because I work in a public health care setting. They are beneficial in many cases but they can be abused, misused and misinterpreted. We need to be careful. I do not believe that our government should create another huge health care program that we cannot afford when the Medicare and Medicaid systems function so poorly.They provide services to many but the misuse and abuse of public funds in these programs is unbelievable. Fix them first.
Jo, you’re a piece of work. It’s impossible to get you to stick with a single point or answer for your own claims. You dismiss counter-arguments as “trivial semantics.” I don’t have time to play games with you.
Amazingly, we do COMPLETELY agree on one point: everyone needs to at least attempt to read as much of the actual text of the bill as they possibly can, inform themselves as best they can, and formulate their OWN opinions.
When seeking out the analysis and opinion of others, I would warn folks never to rely on one single source alone (including urban legends websites) or one single viewpoint alone. Listen in good faith to all sides. Beware of scare tactics.
Then make up your own mind and inform your elected representatives accordingly.
Urbanlegend,
You and I both know contrary to your rhetoric, I have stuck to my point, you just don’t like the ugly facts in this bill.
Try not to shoot the messenger next time.
Jo,
Anybody who has read this exchange and studied pp. 425-430 themselves knows you don’t have a case. You’re here for one purpose and one purpose only, and that’s to scare people.
There’s a lot wrong with this health care bill. It’s fair game for criticism, and people have a right to say “I don’t want this!!!”
But spreading these lies about how it’s some kind of plot to kill old people by denying them care is unconscionable.
My fear is that we as a nation have forgotten how to have a conversation without lying. Whether it was WMDs, “mushroom clouds over New York,” lying about using torture or lying about surveillance of American citizens, the end game seems to be to use whatever it takes to mislead the people. The currents false attacks on health reform, when a majority of people favor it and a majority want a public health option is just one more example of having our democracy slip away. Who ever can yell the loudest is not informed discussion. It is the method used Hitler’s Brown Shirts.
Urban Legends, I have read and re-read the exchange between you and Jo and I have gone back and read the bill again. I have to say I agree with your interpretation. I think what happens is people either have an ulterior motive or they are naturally suspicious of an administration they did not vote for, then along comes someone spreading really scary stories. Then they read the bill on “red alert.” Suddenly an innocuous word like “order” that is used in medical settings a thousand times a day to make sure patients get the proper care becomes instead the government lining us up for concentration camps. I am with you. It will help when people of intelligence read this bill.
Urbanlegend,
I didn’t write the bill, therefor it is Congress who is “scaring people” with Obamacare — not me, I am just citing the legislation.
This blog does not give the WHOLE story. Page 425 alone does not potentially limit life through government end of life counseling — the language in the following pages of the bill potentially DOES.
To the readers, it isn’t what you ARE being told — it is what you ARE NOT being told.
Don’t allow the lies, smears and character assassinations (directed at me or others)or projection, of this blog stop you from obtaining the truth. Read 425 – 430, and decide for yourself.
http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
As Jo says, “Read 425 – 430, and decide for yourself.”
To make that easier I’ve gone back and included the entire text of pp. 425-430 in the grey box above.
Also, you can click any of the several links above to access the 1,018-page document in its entirety.
Thank you for posting 425-430, however there’s much much more in this bill that leads up to that point:
Pg 30 Sec 123 – Government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – Health care rationed. You get limited “care” per year.
Pg 42 – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. No individual choice.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs for Benefit Levels for Plans – The Govt will ration your Health care according to station in life.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members – note your Health care WILL be rationed.
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 – 2.5% tax imposed on those who do not have acceptable HC – according to government standards.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 – Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor will be most affected.
PG 253 Line 10-18 – Govt sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgments, etc. Literally sets value of human life.
PG 268 Sec 1141 – Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
PG 272 Sec 1145 – Cancer Hospitals re-evaluated. Welcome to rationing…
Page 280 Sec 1151 – The Govt will penalize hospitals for “preventable readmissions”.
Pg335 Lines 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Government dictate HC – “measuring care”. Rationing.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Government will restrict enrollment of Special needs.
These parts in the bill, leads us up to the reality of 425-430:
PG 425 Lines 4-12 – Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life. Seniors will be interviewed at least every 5 years, for health issues and decisions.
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 – Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 – Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 – Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 428, 429 Lines 17-25, 1-9 – An “advanced care planning consult” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 – “Advanced care planning consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. An ORDER from the government. (Congress should define “advanced care options” if they do not want speculation. So, why haven’t they done so?)
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 – The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 – The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
Say Jo, did you verify each of those claims against the actual language of the bill before posting?
Because, again, they’re mostly — not entirely, but mostly — crass, politically motivated misrepresentations.
See the sources below (St. Petersburg Times, Associated Press, and health care consultant Linda Bergthold on Huffington Post) for rebuttals:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090802/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_fact_check
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-bergthold/and-so-it-begins—-the-a_b_249354.html
The pending bill is gobbledygook, and if you can make enough sense out of it to draw any valid conclusions, you’re at the head of the class. The first sign of trouble is in the very beginning of Section 1233, which deletes “and” at the end of Section 1861(s)(2)(DD). I followed your link to the bill and found there isn’t an “and” at the end of (DD). Every section of both the Social Security Act and the current version of the healthcare bill has so many tentacles and cross-references that no one can rightly say they understand it unless they’ve invested several days of intensive research and have consulted with subject-matter experts.
Sorry, I don’t allow MSM, leftist-blog cheerleaders or right-wing sites, to tell me what or how to think — I actually have been READING the bill.
I advise anyone reading here (left or right), to do the same, then decide for themselves.
There are legitimate questions – why doesn’t the administration or congress define the terminology?
It is apparent, this congress can’t answer simple questions that have been asked in town halls, which should be very telling to the American people. Instead the left who has the power of the media, the Presidency and congress, have tried to reduce reasonable dissent of the people into “hysterics”. It is shameful.
This discussion is best without party lines or slanted media. Our founders warned against an all approving un-journalistic, lap-dog, media, and of factions. They encouraged us all to be apprised and vigilant of our governments business on a individual basis.
It would do well to learn this lesson.
Jo wrote:
“This discussion is best without party lines…”
Um, so you actually believe that list of distortions (which resembles several such lists currently circulating online) came from an unbiased source? Give us a break!
If you exclude the mainstream media AND left-wing sources AND right-wing sources, you’ve pretty much eliminated all possible avenues of helpful information.
Wouldn’t it be smarter to avail oneself of various viewpoints, keeping in mind of course that you may encounter bias anywhere?
Like you, I’ve been trying to plow away at the bill page-by-page myself, and it’s nigh impossible to make heads or tails of some of it without seeking expert opinions and analysis.
Jo,
I didn’t even have to look at your list for 30 seconds before finding several lies.
You wrote:
“PG 425 Lines 4-12 – Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life. Seniors will be interviewed at least every 5 years, for health issues and decisions.”
Remember, the full contents of pp. 425-430 are posted above for all to see.
NOWHERE does the text say advance care planning consultations are mandatory. This section of the bill merely adds advance care planning consultations to the list of health services Medicare will PAY for.
Oops! Here’s another lie:
“Pg 425 Lines 17-19 – Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!”
False. It does not say the government instruct & consult, nor (as I’ve already pointed out a gazillion times) does it say such consultations are mandatory. The actual language (I quoted it all verbatim above, remember) allows the government (i.e. Medicare) to PAY for consultations between an individual and a physician on those subjects as often as once every 5 years.
And then yet another lie:
“PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 – Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.”
It does NOT say the government will provide such a list. It says the practitioner (i.e. a physician or other qualified health professional) will provide “national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).”
The bill does NOT say these resources are for the purpose of “guiding you in death.” It DOES say these resources are for the purpose of helping the individual patient decide in advance what sorts of treatment they do and do not want in terms of end-of-life care, and helping them specify those choices in the form of a living will and/or advance directive.
Nor does the actual language stipulate an “approved list” of advance care planning resources.
Doing great, and we’re just getting started!
Why do we need a new health plan? The one the Senate and House uses would be fine with me!!
I am amazed at how fixated people are on the hysterical mistruths and cannot read. Minds are made up, not to be cluttered by facts.
To those who think government shouldn’t be involved in health care. does that mean you want Medicare abolished?
“(11) Fred says:
People say that they don’t want the government involved in the nation’s health care. Excuse me, but they already are. The military has government provided health care, veterans have government provided health care, members of Congress and their staffs participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program along with active and retired federal employees. So, be aware that the government is, and has been for some time, involved in providing health care.”
I don’t think I will excuse you, Fred. I am a Veteran who has the option of going to the VA for my health care services. On behalf of all Veterans let me assure you that the VA is a last resort to health care.
I’ll tell you what, you can come with me the next time I go to the VA and spend four hours waiting to refill a prescription, which requires me to take a day off work just to go get it filled.
Also, did you know that VA doctors don’t need Malpractice Insurance? That’s because, if they screw something up or kill me, my family has no right to Due Process, which as you may or may not know, is guaranteed under the Bill of Rights. Obama care offers the same protection to doctors and removes that pesky CONSTITUIONAL RIGHT as a condition of receiving government health care… idiot.
This bill has tentacles.
I have tried to make sense out of the pigs ear, while others wallow in it and call it a silk purse.
Urbanlegend do you think our government wrote a bill that makes aforementioned statements because they are NOT intending them to become law?
Of course not! Mandatory they will become, in light of BHO desire for a “single payer option” (which I posted by his own words). They clearly will be dictated by the current government. You have to be willfully ignorant, blind and/or stupid not to see the writing on the wall.
Here’s more on end of life — enjoy.
http://www.ahrq.gov/research/endliferia/endria.htm
Jo writes:
“Urbanlegend do you think our government wrote a bill that makes aforementioned statements because they are NOT intending them to become law? Of course not! Mandatory they will become. . .”
Wow. Please don’t waste any more of our time. Thank you.
It is truly no wonder why so many Americans are confused by what this bill is actually proposing to do… The wording of any bill can be, and is, confusing to someone that isn’t accustomed to reading things like this… So naturally a person could get confused over what it is actually saying. This bill is not saying that you will be demanded to change your plan to the public one, or that it will make your doctor tell you to commit suicide. This section is saying that every 5 years, if you have not already, you will have the chance to talk to a professional about what you would like to happen if you are diagnosed with a deadly illness or morally wounded.
I only have one problem with how President Obama is handling this, and that is that he wants everyone to read this piece of legislature when the general public does not have that high of a reading level. I am not saying that the general public is stupid… I know plenty of people that are very smart but would not be able to even comprehend what this is saying, but when you don’t understand what the document actually says, you are likely to believe someone you trust to explain it to you when they may be confused on it themselves.
But, really? If this bill passes my grandparents are going to be killed, I will have to pay for other peoples abortions, (even though we already do to a certain extent) and if I am ever injured I will die in a waiting line for the emergency room? I am sorry but this is out right retardation. I beg all of you that say this will cause us to become a socialist country (even though you are confused on what “socialist” means) or believe any other nonsense the media is trying to say about this bill, to go out and do your own research. Find the facts for yourself. Don’t let either side of the isle tell you what this bill means in its entirety, go to legitimate sources and figure it out for yourself. I did my research and you have read what my conclusion is, it may not be the one that you come to but please, if you don’t know what your talking about… for all our sakes…
Shut up and stop getting in the way of real debates.
I would love to talk about section (5)(A)(iii) where it says quote “is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary)” but if you keep getting in the way with all this nonsense talk, that debate will never take place. Nor will the hundreds of other debates people would like to have.
So once again. Please. If you do not know what you are talking about, shut up until you do your research. Then I’m sure we would be happy to talk to you.
Correcting a spelling error in last statement. In the last sentence of the first paragraph, I meant to say mortally not morally.
And “isle” should be “aisle,” but thanks for an intelligent, thoughtful reply. Unfortunately, there are a goodly number of people who are not merely retarded, but are smart enough to know how to lead those folks around by the nose, and they are gleefully MISleading them at every turn.
THIS is why your tax dollars fund public education. I say we should all demand better results – or a refund. Reading skills and critical thinking skills have all but vanished.
Should the government not be allowed to defend itself from overburdening costs to Medicare, Medicaid and other govt support programs that irresponsible health care is creating. No bill is going to be perfect. This bill does not aim to take over health care! It is providing a safety net for those that do NOT have access to basic health care. Its aim is to reduce waste and unnessary spending that is encountered with over ordering and duplicate ordering of tests and procedures, to reduce use of unnecessary expensive drugs and to promote prevention and responsibility about one’s own individual health. Half of people against doing anything with healthcare do not know much about it and if they do they are more worried about their own paycheck. Healthcare is about taking care of people and populations NOT about lining your own checking account with waste money!!!
The ignorance on this blog, is astounding.
Do any of you here really think that private insurance (limited funding) can compete with government insurance(unlimited funding)? It takes only a basic grasp of economics, to know they can’t compete.
So when you are told “you’ll have a choice” – it’s true. But only untill the private insurance companies go under, by a more affordable gov’t HC system.
This has been OPENLY discussed, Obama and other democrats have been telling us this plan for years.
The Obama plan was created by a man named Jacob Hacker — he ADMITS that this will eliminate private insurance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ-6ebku3_E&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.heritage.org%2F2009%2F06%2F15%2Fwhos-telling-the-truth-about-health-care%2F&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk
Once the government obtains single payer HC — YOU — will be told by government, when you get health care, where to get it, by what physician, and how much you are allowed to have. They have already set yearly limited rationed HC, in this VERY bill. (Pg.29 – lines 4-16)
Government run HC always results in LIMITED services. (See Canada/Europe)
This bill will ration HC.
This is not hard to understand. Example; government run “cash for clunkers” — giving $4500 created demand, and that demand crashed the system.
Giving HC to the public, will result in the same. High demand of this system will result in long waits, less doctors (after all what’s the incentive go to school to be a doc?), less specialized medicine, less equipment, and less scientific discovery, which will result in badly run RATIONED HC system.
It has been done before, and it has failed before. Yet brilliant urban legend posters who claim superior understanding of this bill think it’s a good idea to copy failure?
Time to leave the liberal talking point sheep mentality behind, and THINK on your own.
We need to reform HC, but giving government all the power over our personal HC, is not the way to do it.
To address the end of life planning scare..the government is not out to get your or end your life any faster than its natural course. It is offering an option for elders to receive counseling on their options. Everyone should have access to information about options and should be able to make a choice about what constitutes suffering and futile attempts of revival for them in a given set of circumstances. Since many individuals do not know what treatments entail(often time prolonged and painful) they should receiving counseling from experienced experts.
Why should someone be made to live paralyzed, debilitated via heroic measures if they have determined through sound judgment years before that they don’t want this for themselves. Seems many people are equating such decisions to suicide? End of life planning is about preserving dignity and allowing the natural processes of death to occur for futile and/or unbearable circumstances, determined by patient values and informed decision.
I have seen much needless suffering on the path to death. Suffering which non of us would opt for. Don’t you want a choice for how much is enough? Do you want your family members deciding how much suffering you should bare? Your physician who wants to get paid? It is simply a matter of being proactive for ones self.
Finally, it seems like many people do not want to be taxed to pay for Medicare and Medicaid services to the extent that is necessary to provide for this overly abundant and many times futile care that is demanded. Before getting hot and spewing propaganda people should take the time to: educate themselves on issues and evaluate their own logic.
urbanlegend said:
Please don’t waste our time.
Oh, I see, you speak for everyone here?
nowonder said: “Shut up.”
History lesson for the fool and the fool cheerleaders: In America there’s a little thing called the first amendment.
You know — freedom of speech??
I know the liberally minded often silence disagreement. Huff-Po, Daily Kos etc… you know the ones that are afraid of opposing views or factual truth.
Is this blog like them? If so, then I’ll expect you will delete my posts out of fear.
Would show the intolerance of the liberal-tolerance crowd however.
Look, it is not up to the Government or even the individual to determin when to die. That is up to God almighty. I know it doesn’t seem like very many of the democrat leadership believe in God, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t real. This is just another way for government to take over and rule our lives. People will be sorry that they put Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Franks and the rest of them in charge. God help us all!!!
Jo,
I said please stop wasting our time. You can’t (or won’t) argue coherently. You can’t (or won’t) defend the garbage you post.
ANY view is welcome here if it’s sincerely meant to inform the discussion.
Liberal intolerance? You don’t know me. Save your insults for elsewhere.
Urbanledgend said:
NOWHERE does the text say advance care planning consultations are mandatory.
Jo says: Where does it say they ARE NOT mandatory? This is a BILL — which cites “orders”, As per most insurance, if you do not meet the stated criteria you may not be eligible for coverage.
Jo said: “Pg 425 Lines 17-19 – Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!”
UL said: False. It does not say the government instruct & consult, ‘
Jo: This is EXACTLY what it says:
‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable
powers of attorney, and their uses.
The explanation by practitioner does not specify to WHOM he practitioner speaks. Presumably it would be to the patient and the government. Just as in private care, it would it be to patient and private insurer. Private insurance decides coverage eligibility by policy — so would government. They will have to be informed.
BTW, no where does it say in this part of the bill (425-430) that “consultations are paid by medicaid” as you claim, this is the REAL lie.
And then yet another lie:
Jo said: “PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 – Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.”
UL said: It does NOT say the government will provide such a list. It says the practitioner …
See last comment on private/government policy.
It is absurd to believe that government will not be involved in the health care they provide.
Tell me do you believe that government HC will insist on end-of-life saving medical treatment over pain killers? Because if you do — then Obama is lying to us all.
Obama said himself: “…maybe your better off not having the surgery – and taking the pain killer…”
I posted this before — did you watch it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo
UL: said Liberal intolerance? You don’t know me.
I know you gave Huff-Po and other liberal media sites to make your argument in favor of this HC bill. Why would you do this if you didn’t lean left?
You ignore facts I send then call me incoherent, which is also very liberal of you.
Watch Obama tell our elderly to take a pill instead of the surgery then tell me again who is incoherent concerning this bill, BIG clue – it’s not me.
Gary W Bradley — thank you for being a voice of reason.
You’re correct death should not be determined by government or private insurance. BHO has told the elderly perhaps they should take a pill instead of the operation. Please see the youtube I posted.
For the record I can understand why some people would want to take the pill and not the surgery, however this is a individuals choice and should not be left up to the government (or private health care) to decide.
This bill is chilling citing “actionable medical orders” and later saying on pg 430:
(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions.
The word LIMIT should wake people up, but I doubt it will it’s like they are blind to what this bill is saying.
It would be helpful/interesting if each commenter would state whether or not he/she has health insurance or is receiving some sort of health care from a state or federal agency. For the record, I have excellent health insurance and am FOR a national plan.
Jo,
Your more recent post re p. 425 specifically is MUCH better. You actually responded directly to my points, which I appreciate. Response from me will take awhile. Very busy today.
As for the political BS. You don’t get it.
This is an urban legends website. We do folklore and factchecking. The point of this discussion is not to defend (or attack) this bill.
I repeat: The point of this discussion is not to defend (or attack) this bill.
The point is to evaluate the validity of a rumor alleging that page 425 of the bill “will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier.”
If people wish to express general views for OR against the health care bill in general, I’m not going to pitch a big fuss — especially if they can state good reasons and contribute to an understanding of the issues — but the best-case scenario is that the majority of us stick to the subject at hand.
My problem with YOU is that when you debate you switch grounds in the middle, and it makes it impossible to have a coherent argument.
If you say “The bill says XYZ is mandated on page 425, line 15,” and I respond by saying “There is no such language saying XYZ is mandated,” then you respond by saying, in effect, “Are you kidding? It’s the GOVERNMENT. Of COURSE it’s mandated!” then you have changed the subject and made the debate incoherent.
THAT’S what I mean by wasting our time. And I will continue to ask you (and everyone else) not to do it.
If that makes me some sort of “Liberal” in your eyes, well, more power to you. The rest of us are scratching our heads.
Thank you.
I have much less respect for UL. UL — claims to be moderate and entertain all views, but you billed the alleged “rumor” as:
“Text of hysterical rumor” and only posted one page (425) of over 1000, at fist. I do thank you for eventually posting 425-430, however this bill is large, and it is disingenuous to claim the ‘rumor” debunked when reading other parts of the bill that may confirm rationing and limits on HC, which could be referred to for end-of-life issues. The bill is vague at best, and has connections/ties with other legislation such as SS, medicaid/care, and ongoing end of life health studies.
This bill neither proves the e-mail legitimate nor does it confirm it.
It is clear that BHO himself and other democrats working on this legislation believe in single payer government HC, as well as permitting the elderly to choose to end their lives.
The question remains will the government deny coverage for the terminally ill, or terminally accident stricken?
History of other countries who have HC similar to this plan, demonstrates that age and terminal medical conditions result in rationing or denial of coverage.(Example UK limits eend-of-life expenditures to about $40,000 PP: http://www.nice.org.uk/)
Why would this NOT happen here? And what part of this bill proves conclusively that rationing/denial will not happen to American citizens?
(Side note to UL: If one produces evidence to support past government debacles, or future intentions, is not incoherency. It is providing evidence to support the current argument.)
Shirl — I have private coverage – catastrophic coverage – 10,000 deductible. Nat’l health care would be cheaper for me by all means, but I don’t believe it would be better. Somethings we simply shouldn’t buy cheap.
Why do you want national HC, if you already have good coverage?
BTW no one goes without HC in the USA, medicaid covers all if needed. No emergency room is denied, so since we have government HC in the form of the safety net — medicaid (which BTW is broke) why would we want to put another program into play? Why not just fix medicaid and put more on this existing program?
Jo writes: “If one produces evidence to support past government debacles, or future intentions, is not incoherency. It is providing evidence to support the current argument.”
Not if the current argument begins with the statement “Page 425 says XYZ.”
Please, please, please: If you want to make the argument that the health care bill is bad because the government always screws things up; or because it’s dangerous to give the government too much power; or socialism is bad; MAKE THOSE ARGUMENTS.
But don’t waste our time by pretending they prove that page 425 mandates suicide.
Politics has finally taken its toll.. The ugly truth is that there is no winning side with this issue of Health Care Reform. Both sides have made very good points to fight for what they believe in is right. but the fact of the matter is this… Most if not all protestors against this bill have never had the stress of having to afford their own health care, they havent lived the hell of having to apply for medicaid through a Dept of children and families, or go through the embarrassment of not being able to provide quality health care for their families… Such is the same for those of which are for the health care reform bill, who have never seen the amazing benefits of having quality health care, who have not and possibly will have never in their lives gotten the chance to do so. But in my opinion it boils down to one factor – SAVING LIVES!!!! I MEAN GOD DAMN IT!!! DONT PEOPLE SEE THAT THERE ARE CHILDREN AND ADULT AMERICANS WHO ARE BEING TURNED AWAY AND DENIED MEDICAL ATTENTION… PEOPLE ARE DYING!!! AND THAT SHOULD CONSTITUTE OVER ANY POLITAL AGENDA OR LIBERTIES THAT ARE IN EFFECT AT THIS TIME. PEOPLE ARGUE THAT THE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE DOESNT WORK IN CANADA OR IN BRITIAN… WHAT KIND OF ARGUEMENT IS THAT!!! WE ARE AMERICA!!! WE DO THINGS BETTER, AND WE LEARN FROM OURS AND OTHERS MISTAKES- WE WOULDNT BE SO DUMB TO FOLLOW THE EXACT SAME FOOTSTEPS OF THOSE TAKEN BY THE CANADIANS OR THE BRITS. AGAIN — PEOPLE ARE DYING!!!!!— PLEASE PEOPLE I KNOW THAT CHANGE IS CAN BE SCARY, ESPECIALLY WHEN ANYTHING YOU KNOW OF THE SUBJECT SHOWS DOOM. BUT REMEMBER THE UNITED STATES HISTORY AND EVERYTHING WE HAVE OVER COME IN THE SHORT TIME SPAN OF OUR YOUNG EMPIRE, WE ARE THE WORLD LEADERS WE CAN DO THIS AND IT WILL BE DONE RIGHT— HAVE FAITH IN THE ELECTED OFFICIALS, HAVE FAITH THAT ALTHOUGH IT MIGHT BE IFFY AT FIRST, EVERYTHING WILL SETTLE INTO ITS PLACE THE ADJUSTMENTS WILL BE MADE AND WE WILL AS AMERICANS ONCE AGAIN BE THE TEACHERS TO OTHER NATIONS ON HOW TO MAKE THE HUMAN WAY OF LIFE MORE LIVABLE.
Jo writes:
UL — claims to be moderate and entertain all views, but you billed the alleged “rumor” as:
“Text of hysterical rumor” and only posted one page (425) of over 1000, at first.
1. My God, what about the claim that this health care bill mandates suicide ISN’T hysterical?
2. From day one I posted the text of the first page of the section AND a link to the text of the entire bill, both at the top and at the bottom of the page. Added the rest of the section when it became clear it would help debate the points.
3. The more time you spend here trying to paint me as a liberal shill, the less credibility you will have.
Now there is hysterics for you.
Government regulation is one thing, but government control is a disaster waiting to happen. Proponents of government-controlled healthcare claim that 30-40% of healthcare costs under our current system go to administrative overhead instead of delivery of services, and that the system embodied in the pending bill will greatly reduce those administrative costs. I’ve been a Federal employee for almost 40 years, and if you believe that deeper government involvement makes any program more efficient and less costly, you just haven’t been paying attention.
This is a crock ok here goes you obviously haven’t been to the doctor since 2005 when your fabulious bush was president because every since then every time you enter a hospital or a post procedure situtation they are already doing this . with or with out insurace hospitals and doctors have doing this for 4 years , it is a choice and we all know god forbid you radicals don’t want us to have choice .
FYI readers — congress writes legislation and democrats have been in control of congress since 2006.
This consultation most certainly is mandatory because it states that if you have not a consultation in the previous 5 years one must be scheduled.
Jo writes:
“Discussion of this vague bill, must be considered with all available information, do you disagree?”
No, I don’t disagree. What I’ve said that it’s not worth my time to try to argue what the text actually says with someone who consistently switches the subject to the dangers of government control or politicians’ hidden motives.
Yet again, I will say: nobody’s stopping you from bringing those issues up. Just don’t expect ME to sustain a debate with you if you switch subjects in the middle of it.
Jo writes:
“Look, if Democrats want to ration and limit end-of-life health care, they should just write it in the bill. If they do not, then make it clear it will not be tolerated. Then let’s discuss it.”
You’re welcome to discuss it. I won’t. This posting was, and is still supposed to be, about what p. 425 of the bill actually says.
Jo writes:
“I find it interesting that you UL, ignore loony hysterics, telling posters to just shut up, go away, you don’t know, not smart enough to read the bill, etc… these people are the ones who aren’t discussing the bill. Yet you accuse me of it??”
No, I accused you of not sticking to the specific subject you and I were debating. How many times to I have to say this? You, like everyone else, are welcome to talk about any aspect of health care reform you like. Just don’t expect ME to continue a debate with you if you don’t stick to the topic at hand.
At present the only topics I want to ban from this discussion are 1) me, and 2) you.
What people are interested in is what the bill says, not you and me.
Jeff,
Can you quote for us the EXACT language in the bill that says if you have not had a consultation in the previous 5 years one must be scheduled?
Thanks.
The shall in the health care bill in Section 425 refers to what the consultation shall include not whether there will be one or not.
Jeff you are right – UL will deny what can be easily read:
(3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following: (topics of consultations skipped…)
SHALL – means you WILL. It doesn’t read “at the request” or “perhaps” — it says SHALL.
Shall by definition:
SHALL\
Function:
verb
verbal auxiliary1archaic a: will have to : must b: will be able to : can2 a—used to express a command or exhortation b—used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory
SHALL means MANDATORY in law.
Jeff Baymiller writes:
“The shall in the health care bill in Section 425 refers to what the consultation shall include not whether there will be one or not.”
You’re correct.
1. It doesn’t follow from that that the consultations are mandatory.
2. As people keep pointing out, you have to spend some time following the “tentacles” of the bill to understand it.
In this case you have to start at the top (and what follows is also in response to Jo, who says, in effect, “Prove that the consultations AREN’T mandatory”).
Translating the gobbledygook of the language in the bill, the section on Advance Care Planning Consultation amends the Social Security Act by adding everything beginning on p. 425 through the end of the section, to the end of Title 18, Section 1861, subsection (s)(2).
Here’s a link to SSA Section 1861 so you can see the context:
http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/ssact/title18/1861.htm
Title 18 is titled “Health Insurance for the Aged and Disabled.” It defines what Medicare is and what it covers.
Section 1861 appears under “Part A: Miscellaneous Provisions.” The title of section 1861 is “Definitions of services, institutions, etc.” It lists the services covered by Medicare and defines them. Here are some examples of the services listed in subsection (s)(2):
(A) services and supplies (including drugs and biologicals which are not usually self-administered by the patient) furnished as an incident to a physician’s professional service…
(B) hospital services
(C) diagnostic services
(D) outpatient physical therapy services
(E) rural health clinic services
(F) home dialysis supplies and equipment
(G) antigens
And skipping ahead…
(W) an initial preventive physical examination
(X) cardiovascular screening blood tests
(Y) diabetes screening tests
(Z) intravenous immune globulin for the treatment of primary immune deficiency diseases in the home
(AA) ultrasound screening for abdominal aortic aneurysm
(BB) additional preventive services
(CC) items and services furnished under a cardiac rehabilitation program
(DD) items and services furnished under an intensive cardiac rehabilitation program
(EE) kidney disease education services
And here is where p. 425 of the health care bill comes in.
Under the bill, Title 18, section 1861, subsection (s)(2) would be amended so that the NEXT item in the list after (EE) is:
(FF) advance care planning consultation [and all the explanatory verbiage that follows]
So. Please look at Title 18 yourself. Look at where (FF) fits into it and answer this question: Does it fall into a list of MANDATED Medicare services, or does it fall into a list of COVERED Medicare services?
Unless I’ve missed something (PLEASE point it out if I have), the answer is quite obviously the latter.
UL said: No, I accused you of not sticking to the specific subject you and I were debating.
You only want to discuss ONE page – page 425??
Kind of limits the discussion, now doesn’t it?
I read the “topic” from above as:
Health Care Bill Page 425 – The Truth
Monday July 27, 2009
1. Text of hysterical rumor: (then the text…etc…)
Page 425 “truth” cannot exist if it is not in context with the entire bill, and the drafters stated intentions. (as the youtube videos)
That is like taking part of the first amendment “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” then intentionally leaving out the second part “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
True, it happens.
But it still doesn’t make it correct information.
Jo writes:
eff you are right – UL will deny what can be easily read:
(3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following: (topics of consultations skipped…)
SHALL – means you WILL. It doesn’t read “at the request” or “perhaps” — it says SHALL. … SHALL means MANDATORY in law.
You’re exactly right. But PLEASE think about this and answer in good faith. Do you REALLY find it valid to interpret “such consultation shall include” to mean “patients shall have such consultation whether they want it or not”?
“Such consultation shall include” DOES mandate something: it mandates what a consultation must consist of.
Nowhere does it say patients MUST have such consultations.
You’re so full of it…That’s not what is says…their not talking about suicide they’re speaking of planning what will happen in the event of your death and planning, so it doesn’t get dumped in the laps of your family!!!
I’ll say it again. Government is inherently incapable of cost-effective and efficient management of ANY program, much less something as monstrous as health care for 300 million people. It doesn’t matter one whit what the bill says or doesn’t say. Simply put, a government-managed healthcare system in any form, along with the gargantuan bureaucracy established to run it, will very soon prove to be a Frankenstein. I can’t believe so many of you are so eager to flip the switch and jolt the dead body to life.
Health care is not even the issue. This is about the federal government having controll over every aspect of our lives taking away freedom and liberty the concept is straight out communism.socialism,marxist Idealogy (not only no but hell no to any government health care program and a socialist government)
I want America back, I am sick of Obamanation
Sid
UL — Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x)
I believe this is the link you want – http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1395x.html
I don’t have time now to wallow through it, may be revealing.
I still maintain (as 425 reads) – BY LAW (government) the practitioner has to inform the patient every 5 years.
Again is reads SHALL — and shall in law is Mandatory.
UL I think we agree on the 5 years. This is about end-of-life care, once a patient see’s the doc they have to be informed about end of care options of the gov’t run program. The question remains what are those options? And will the Gov’t limit those options for terminally ill??
As I said I had an aunt who was given 3 months to live, yet she lived 12 years because of private medical options. Under Obama would she of been cared for or given medication to help her in death?
According to Obama if there is no hope, she may have been given pain medication.
Jo
Don’t waste time and effort arguing over 1 line, 1 page, or 100 pages of this 1400-page horror story. Debating the meaning of words and phrases draws attention from the immensely greater issue of a government-managed system. I love this country and am a long-time Federal employee, but my government. . .God love ‘em. . .simply cannot pull this off no matter how it’s structured. Instead of a healthcare system that admittedly needs improvement, we’ll end up with one that’s permanently broken and we’ll all be bankrupt. Once the Feds take it over, we’ll never get it back regardless of how bad it is.
Note: The following are pages 425-427 of HR 3200
Officially known as America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009
Page 424
Advance Care Planning Consultation
(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner [A DOCTOR, NURSE PRACTITIONER OR PHYSICIAN’S ASSISTANT] described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning [PLANNING FOR DEATH], if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:
[Translation: the Federal Government directs that Every five years (age 18, 23, 28, 33, 38.....), or when a person is diagnosed with a chronic or life-limiting disease like arthritis, diabetes, or heart disease, every Person must meet with a nurse practitioner, physician’s assistant, or a doctor, and discuss with them the benefits of determining how one is going to die.]
(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
[Translation: the Federal Government will ask you to appoint someone to decide how you will die, in the event you are unable to express your wishes.]
(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
[Translation: the Federal Government will give you an 800 number to dial if you want to discuss how to die.]
(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
[Translation: the Federal Government will discuss with you the benefits of taking drugs to ease you through the process of dying.]
(F)
(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—
(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;
[Translation: the Federal Government will advise you of why it’s better for you decide how you die, rather than leaving that decision to your family.]
(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and
(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that indi1idual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decision-maker (also known as a health care proxy).
(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State—
(I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; and
(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii).
[Translation: the Federal Government will permit your state to set up a similar program with standardized forms to fill out and complete.]
(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that—
(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment;
(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and
(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.
[Translation: the Federal Government will require that your state have a committee of governmental employees, hospitals, nursing home providers, and lawyers to review the standardized forms.]
(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is—
(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)); and
(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.
(3)
(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).
[Translation: the Federal Government says that talking with your doctor about it during a physical exam doesn’t count. You need to have a special meeting to talk about your instructions.]
(B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.t
(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.
[At the end of the meeting, Each American will be asked to sign a form, approved by the Federal Government, which says “this is how I want my life to end” and, absent a sudden accident, violent death, or suicide, that is how it will end.]
(5)
(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that—
(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;
[Translation: After you sign the form, the PA, Nurse, or Doctor will sign it. That will be a contract. Your contract on how you are to die. the form will stay with you for the rest of your life unless you change it. Until you fill out a new form, it can be relied upon by any health care provider, any insurer, or any governmental entity.]
(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;
(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and
(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.
(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items—
[Translation: you can opt for full treatment, but the nurse, PA or Doctor is going to counsel you against it.]
(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;
[Translation: the form can include a “DNR” meaning a “do not resuscitate order” or an order that you be permitted to die at home if you have a heart attack, stop breathing, or have a lung problems.]
(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;
[Translation: the form will ask you if you want to die at home instead of going to the hospital.]
(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
[Translation: the form will ask you if you want antibiotics to quell any infections or pneumonia, or if you’d rather have the infection kill you.]
(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.
[Translation: the form should ask you whether, if you are unable to communicate your wishes, medical personnel can remove your iv’s and permit you to die of kidney failure.]
I’m sick of arguments dealing feeling – yes, I FEEL bad that there are people without health care. I feel bad there are people without shoes – is Big Brother going to give them shoes, too? If people are correct in basing arguments on “feelings”, then all the wackos who insist that admitted child molesters and serial killers are deserving of freedom and sympathy must be right, so let them move in next to you. How about my feeling that I deserve a pizza right now? Should I appeal to the better nature of the rest of the world to get it?
People used to be able to pay for health care on a basis decided between them and their doctors – even if that meant the doctor was being paid in chickens or produce. No one believed health care was a “right”. “Health care” is available for most people showing up in an ER, spouting blood, with broken bones and the like – “health insurance,” is unfortunately not free, as someone somewhere DOES pay for everyone’s health care. I’m paying for some one else’s free lunch. I pay into Medicare and Social Security – which won’t even be helpful for my generation by the time I’m old enough to claim it – yay for Federal run programs.
I have no problem helping support the older generation with my contributions, even if I am somewhat bitter knowing that the mismanagement of the funds and the programs will leave me high and dry in the future. I’m happy with my current health insurance through my employer – I don’t want the Federal Government meddling in it because they have proven over and over since the Great Depression they don’t know jack about money – who else is allowed to spend money on an over-drawn bank account?
Also, has it occured to anyone that part of these “consultations” will be to tell older people that certain treatments are not avaialbe to them? Why should only older people be planning wills? I could get his by a car tonight – where’s my consultation? The very fact that this is targeting seniors to plan for “end of life care” tells me exactly what it’s about – END OF LIFE care.
“Ezekiel Emanuel, whose brother is the President’s chief of staff, describes in the article his method of “Complete Lives System”: It “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” This may be justified by public opinion, since “broad consensus favors adolescents over very young infants, and young adults over very elderly people.” He goes on to explain cold-bloodedly why the “death of a 20-year-old woman is intuitively worse than that of a 2-month-old girl,” etc., in a clinical exercise of psywar.”
“Dr. Emanuel’s June 2008 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association criticized the Hippocratic Oath as an unwelcome “imperative [for physicians] to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others.”"
Based on these ideals, can you tell me that these “consultations” would not over the years be to tell grandma that she’s too pricey for the Government to keep alive, so she’d do her grandkids a favor by letting herself die by not receiving her heart pills/diabetes medicines/whatever she might need? That she should ask to be let to die when she has that stroke after being denied her blood thinners? She could be an otherwise healthy lady, but she needs one item to function well, but as she is no longer “needed” by society as a whole, and does not directly contribute anymore, she is denied care.
Geez – old-school science fiction warned about all this, not to mention Bradbury, Rand, Orwell, Heinlein and score of others. Heck, even Star Trek has addressed these issues. It’s not about caring too little on the basis of we who are opposed – I care TOO MUCH to let an incompetent, heartless arbitrary body tell me or my relatives what care they can have or when.
I agree that healthcare here in the US needs a major overhaul to put it lightly. But I have to ask this question. Are we wanting to take the decision making power out of the hands of the profit motivated healthcare providers and place it in the hands of politicians who lie with every breath they can muster? I am not saying that I am totaly against national healthcare nor am I totaly for it. I have looked at the current draft of the bill and see things I do like, and things I do not like. I guess the question is what is the lesser of the two evils and which one will not infringe on my freedom of choice.
Right, then. The last several posts by various people have tended in the direction of painting the Advance Care Planning Consultation section of the bill as a covert effort to have the government start telling older people how and when to die.
I just want to add a few thoughts.
First, remember, this entire section is an amendment to Medicare. On any fair reading of the text, all it does is add Advance Care Planning Consultations to the services covered by Medicare.
Second, Advance Care Planning and the preparation of health care directives is already a standard feature of most health insurance programs. Blue Cross recommends advance health care directives to its members. Kaiser Permenente conducts classes to guide members in creating their own advance health care directives.
And so I put it to you. The language in this section of the bill allows for a Medicare patient to consult with a physician every five years and discuss “the continuum of options” for the purpose of preparing a health care directive which, to quote the bill, “effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual.”
Why shouldn’t Medicare cover this?
This bill stands for everything we stand against. Expect unforeseen consequences in the even of it’s passing. We do not stand against all people having healthcare, we do not stand against the rights of the people. We stand against slavery. If you side with them, you side against us. We have issued a no quarter, no surrender referendum on this matter. Good Day.
Guys! My insurance company droped me at 65 and I had to go on Medicare and I will tell you it sucks. Don’t you remember when Germany wanted something better and that is how Hitler came into power. I think that the govenment should stay out of our buiness, look what a mess that the govenment did with cash for clunkers. I think that the govenment hires all the low IQ people in the US.
Most of you know by now that the Senate Version 20 (at least) of the “Stimulus” Bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens. The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement:
“health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.”
He can say that because he would not be subject to the same healthcare system. Just remember that our esteemed Senators and Congressmen, those sons of bitches, have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed for the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes.
Ferdinand wrote:
Tom Daschle was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement:
“health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.”
If Bloomberg actually quoted Daschle that way, they need to issue a correction.
He did once say: “health-care reform will not be pain free.”
He never said: “Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.”
Source: Politifact.com
Ross, I agree with you — anything government runs is a complete DISASTER.
But if they happen to cram this through, I want people to understand that a government big enough to *give* you health care — is also a government big enough to TAKE it away.
You know what I hate? People who aren’t religious criticizing those of us who are for not wanting to fund health care for every American. You use the Bible against us, but when we try to mention our core values or beliefs, you scream “separation of Church and State.” Give me a break. Of course we care about people. We are given the directive in the Scriptures to care for the poor, the widows, the orphans. Christ gives that mandate to individual Christians, NOT FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS!
Skyrocketing health care costs are increasingly putting a financial drag on our businesses. Insurance companies decide what they will cover and seek to deny/cap care. The recordkeeping and billing systems are extremely inefficient. The cost increases of the status quo are unsustainable. We need constructive ideas about resolving these situations. Distortion of the facts and scare tactics are counterproductive. I want conservative people at the table to make sure that we come up with a plan that is level headed…but I am concerned that so many conservatives seem to be boycotting the discussion by trying to focus on sabotaging the reform efforts altogether instead.
The healthcare in the USA does NOT need a
MAJOR overhaul! Yes the insurance co.’s caused healthcare cost to rise the years following WII
However that hit a plateau, what continued the rise in cost was & is frivolous law suits &
Illegal immigration with a percentage of fraud helping.
Just think what a gynecologist pay’s on average for His/Her insurance to practice.
Average= about $300,000 per year
You won’t see this group atack these problems!
Ther not about solving problems there about
gaining absolute control.
B.L.
Mike wrote:
“Distortion of the facts and scare tactics are counterproductive. I want conservative people at the table to make sure that we come up with a plan that is level headed … but I am concerned that so many conservatives seem to be boycotting the discussion by trying to focus on sabotaging the reform efforts altogether instead.”
Makes ya wonder, doesn’t it.
Health care can not be left alone to the free market. Health care is an inelastic commodity, meaning it does not respond to the laws of supply and demand. If you need a procedure, you will do what ever you can to get it done (insurance or not, money or not). As long as we live in a civilized nation, hospitals will be excepting the poor and uninsured and they will be treated.
This sounds like Carousel, straight out of Logan’s Run.
I don’t see any copy of the “SECRETARY” having the power to do anything they want to do in this report.
Medicare is government healthcare. Let’s just expand it to cover everyone, not just the elderly.
The problem with provisions in bills such as “death counseling” is they open the door for abuse. There are lots of examples in our history that show the excesses that can occur. For example, when the constitutional amendment giving the govt. the power to tax peoples incomes was being debated it was argued that it would never go above 5% of a persons income, look where we are now. I also doubt that anybody forsaw the abusive power the IRS would have over us all either.
Another example is Social Security. When it was passed during the Great Depression people were told it would be self-sufficient but later generations kept adding to the people that were eligible to receive benifits until it is now near bankruptcy.
I am very opposed to giving buareacrats this kind of power that could someday degenerate into denying people care because they are too old. Instead of a bill like this, that is so long no one can read it let alone understand it all, why not pass some simple things. If people and lawyers that bring frivolous law suits against care givers had to pay the other sides legal bills if they lost it would cost us less for health care. Or how about writing legislation governing the “I don’t care about the individual” practices of the insurance industry that drive costs up each year and infuriate us all.
I don’t want more govt. intrusion in my life. Nor do I want my grandchildren to be straped with paying for these socialist programs that get passed by playing on the fears and emotions of the good people of America.
What’s so wrong about killing old people? The world is too overpopulated as it is. Survival of the fittest!
Constitutional, a good christian is one who does what God wants them to do. They do not give there money to someone else to do it for them. We adopted two abused and neglected children because we felt God was calling us to do something for these children. We did not just count on the State to take care of it through the use of our tax dollars. It is not the governments job to solve all our societal woes for us. We need to as individuals stand up and take action to effectively make change in the world. We Americans like change. “Change is good”, or so the adage says, right? But isn’t it more true that Change is neither good nor bad? Did you read this post? “Change can happen for better or for worse, and it takes a discerning eye to tell the difference between the two – not a passing glance at some text and trust in other’s opinions. You have to look at the stuff yourself, or risk adding to the problem. “
Wow! This incredible loser attitude from Republicans is amazing! After 8 years of shear HELL with BUSH as president they can’t stand to lose for awhile? I just received a bill from the hospital for 3 broken ribs for a total of $2,745 after my CRAPPY employer paid insurance went thru. I love private insurance running me into poverty over and over again for doing absolutely nothing. For God’s sake you rich Republican scum stop investing in your money making schemes w/ the insurance co. and their ripoff artist pharmacy brands and let the poor have some insurance. It’s
not like you have to have the public offered insurance. If you make over $280K/year then pay more in taxes YOU WHINERS! Try making an honest living with an income of $30K/yr and see what ya think…
it is NOT an option for you to arbitrarily and incorrectly choose to bastardize scripture so it fits your agenda. pay attention now – it is presumed in scripture that your love of christ will naturally reveal an outpouring of actions showing the love christ has for us (james). this reponse to faith it NOT a “heaven-earning” action. this response to faith has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with forcefully taking from people groups to help other people groups through legislation or otherwise. what you have done is you have taken your skewed view (this truley is not meant to belittle, but to reveal and teach) of the christian faith and manipulate it inside a few sentences, sarcastically, to fit your agenda. the fact is that scripture has no expectation of taking from one to give to another – democrats know this as “robin hood-ism”. problem with using robin hood – the story is that robin hood stole from the sheriff of notingham (government) who had stolen from the people of the kingdom. this is covered in the book of amos (old testament if you aren’t familiar – genuinely no sarcasm intended – seriously). what also we see in amos is that the jews had an explicit covenant with god that they were to serve him and, to steal a NT word but definitely an idea ever-present in the OT, the jews were to evangelize the nations! what is interesting in amos yet not at all unique to amos is that the non-jews, aka “the nations”, WERE 100% RESPONSIBLE TO YAHWEH AS WELL THROUGH AN IMPLICIT COVENANT (amos, chapters 1 and 2))!!!!! this is where you come in “you go Constitutionalist…”
you are responsible JUST AS CHRISTIANS to give of yourself – NOT to elect a congress and president who will take from all and decrease the quality of life for everyone, in the name of equality. equality is NOT an american ideal and is a concept absolutely and completely foreign to biblical context as well. also, “fairness” is foreign to american foundation and is ONLY ONLY ONLY present in the bible in the context of Yahweh’s just impartial judicial administration (this last part, not to offend, you may not understand. many think god 1. doesn’t exist, 2. is mean/hateful, 3. ?, based on their personal life experience. faulty logic – to base belief in god on your personal experience alone. also, so you know, when grown folks talk like that they sound like 7th grade kids – ie. everything Green Day sings about or most rock bands for that matter. i pray some day you do understand).
i hope this helps you understand that if you want to help someone – save and buy them insurance yourself, for example. know that the bible DOES NOT support what is being attempted by this administration, quite unfortunately set up by the previous administration. as for me and my family, we shall fight for ourselves and for the few outside our family that we can come up with a way to fight for. help yourself AND folks you know and meet on your own, and my family and i will continue to do the same.
In THIS country we have the pursuit of happiness, not illegal confiscation thereof.
Health care is not the job of *federal* government — if you want HC in your state then address the issue with your state. The federal government is limited by the constitution — see 9th and 10th amendments.
As for taxation — the rich already foot the bill, continue to chase their money out of the US economy then the middle class and eventually poor, will have to bear the tax burden, oops, that’s right — it’s already being considered by THIS administration.
Why do you think NY, CA, MI etc… are in the crapper? They are run by liberal democrats who have chased wealth and jobs out of state. That’s why.
I don’t see anything about suicide, I want to know why Repubs are so afraid of this bill, I think you are more afraid that it is going to work and then oopps there goes Obama doing exactly what he promisied and then getting reelected in 2012.
Obama openly admits he supports elderly end-of lifeers to be medicated and not have surgery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-dQfb8WQvo
The question is would it be eventually limited or mandated through government rationing of HC as other countries have had to do?
Do you want to risk it?
Jo writes:
“Obama openly admits he supports elderly end-of lifers to be medicated and not have surgery.”
All I can say, folks, is listen to Obama’s full answer to the question in this unedited version of the video and decide for yourselves if that’s what he really said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJYvaLS-xOw&NR=1
The Repubs in this forum STILL haven’t answered if they were only making 30K/yr what they would think…it’s so OBVIOUS they are the whining rich who would move away because of their selfish interests of saving more money than God rather than helping others in need. Put all your money off shores then you “patriots”. “helping others” = assisting the veterans w/ a good government run (god forbid) health care system. Scratch your heads on that one. Pay up a PORTION of your fortunes or leave this country!!! I’m certain my Swiss friends would welcome you in their country!!!!
Stop the madness…No one is forcing seniors to kill themselves earlier to save money..To my understanding, The bill is giving you the option on what to do with your own life, if and when the time comes for you to die..Stop speading the madness.. No one is pushing Suicide to anyone..I believe it’s your own personal decision on what to do with your life..Stop spreading wrong info..Remember what happen to Teri Shivo..Everyone got involved in her and family’s personal life who doesnt have the business of getting involved…The bottom line is her decision and her husband decision. Not the so called rightious people who think they know what is right for her. Stop the madness…
Stop harassing Democracy. I can File for Harassment in CA, I am a good Democrat, We Demos (Democrats) get a bad Rep. You lucky for now. But if you said it in my state. I can Sue for harassment and drowing out Senators (Democrats especially in their home state) I was taught early, if you don’t have nothing nice to say, don’t say it at all. Democrats Rally NOW! GET YOUR REARS IN GEAR
NO VOTE DEMOCRATIC! NO REPUBLICANS
I certainly hope people start to realize that the Health insurance and Pharmaceutical industries are the ones spreading these lies. This has got to stop, before someone really gets hurt!! These people at the town hall meetings are seriously flawed,and I’m afraid someone’s going to get carried away!!
I am a Republican, and I make 30K a year. Do I look forward to Nationalized HC? NO. There. Happy?
Another Wow! I am truly blessed you responded w/ little to no solution to this huge problem. You must be well covered then huh?
Don’t we already face rationing of healthcare now? Insurance companies make decisions for you already. Everyone is arguing that the government will be deciding your fate at end of life or whatever…it already happens with the insurance companies.
Sounds like he said that could be an option (painkiller versus surgery).
That is part of the problem. I read pages 425 – 435, and listened to the You tube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJYvaLS-xOw&NR=1
I came away with the understanding that the 5 year counseling sessions were mandatory, and that it could be decided that the choices you made would not be honored (page 430 and 432).
Many here are reading this the same way I am, and many here are reading the same thing and drawing a different conclusion.
some on the right will dismiss those on the left as socialists, some on the left will dismiss dissenting opinions on the right as lunatic fringe, but at the end of the day, most people are reading this and arriving at (for them) an honest conclusion.
I think the real questions are…..
Why is it so ambiguous?
How can so many people read the same thing and draw different conclusions?
ROBDEBO89 wrote:
“Why is it so ambiguous? How can so many people read the same thing and draw different conclusions?”
I think we’re all wondering the same thing.
Personally, I think it’s because the wording is in fact too ambiguous, because the bill was in fact written too hastily, because legalese is hard to understand under the best of circumstances, and because people — all people — tend to interpret words and deeds through the lens of their own experiences and beliefs.
And because there’s too much propaganda ringing in our ears.
Leave it to the Republicans to go with the scare tactics if they really believed that a health care program run by the government is so wrong let them work to repeal Medicare and see how far that gets them. The is no end of life requirement there is a counseling benefit that will be paid for by the government should a individual want to exercise the option no one has too do anything, Governor Palin needs to learn how to read !
This is great no one can figure this bill out. No wonder the politicans don’t want to read it. But the fact is they are going to vote on it anyway. My opinion. Vote NO. Everything they get involved with the screw up anyway. The government should not be involved in my PRIVATE DOCTOR PATIENT RELATIONSHIP period,end of story!!!!!!!
It’s amazing how some people here repeatedly distort the contents of this bill despite being shown irrefutable proof that their claims are false.
Apparently it’s easier to parrot the rantings and ravings of right-wing politicians and pundits as fact than to actually read the document–not just small sections of it–and form an independent opinion.
No wonder we ended up with eight years of Bush. People are too lazy to actually think for themselves.
I haven’t read the entire bill yet, and I definitely do have some questions about what I have read so far. I think that Congress should delay voting on this for a few months, so all citizens will have time to read it. Printed copies should be available in public libraries for those who don’t have computer access.
I’d like to see REAL public discussion of this bill, not just mobs of people bent on doing nothing but yelling and screaming and disrupting town hall meetings because some radio talk show host told them to do so.
An aside to Jo: as a CA resident, I think you should know that this state is being incompetently governed by Arnold Schwarzenegger, a REPUBLICAN.
You are a very misinformed person. Are you talking about advance directives? Every Hospital does this every time you visit them. They are not trying to get old people to commit suicide. Either you are trying to stir the pot or you just don’t understand.
Jo,
Please direct yourself to page 429 – 430 of the bill.
“(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that—
(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;”
The term ORDER you are so scared of – is a term used by healthcare professionals to indicate what is to be done/given to any given patient.
When your doctor gives you a prescription for a certain medication, he/she is actually giving you an ORDER.
The term ORDER also indicates a patients wishes for what kind of treatment he or she wishes to receive. If you have an advanced directive, you should know that that document is an ORDER to the doctors that lets them know what you want done in case you are unable to make decisions for yourself (say, after an car accident and you are unconscious or in a coma)
Please read the bill and rather than scare people by saying the government will ORDER doctors to provide (or not provide) care to those in need. The government will not order any sick person to die. Those ORDERS have to come from the patients themselves.
Amazing so many misinformed can read plain English and misconstrue it. Ambiguous as it may be — this line is PLAIN English:
“(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions.
(…example indications)
(A) (ii) – is adding the word “and” at the end of subparagraph EE
——————————–
This clearly says FULL treatment or LIMITED.
No country that has public HC has UNLIMITED care – NONE.
They all have limits and most ration care.
Maybe you want your grandma to be limited but most people want all options for their loved ones.
Jo,
Please refer back to the original document. The level of treatment that is indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) is the “individual’s preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual”
When you are reading a legal document, make sure to refer back to any subsections they indicate.
When you write an advance directive, you can state that in case you cannot make decisions for yourself, you want doctors to do everything they can to save you. You can also ask that you not be put on a respirator or you can indicate that you want a DNR order – a “DO NOT RESUSCITATE” order.
And doctors MUST follow these orders – these order that you indicate on your advanced directive (your wishes for treatment options)
The government is not writing your advanced directive. YOU ARE!!
The FAMILY is the basic building block of society.
From there it expands to include your neighbors, then your community, city, county, state and lastly, the federal government. We are almost completely UPSIDE DOWN.
We HAVE evolved into a system where the federal government is heavily involved in areas they don’t have the authority to be involved in. When the federal government becomes the basic building block of society and the family is the last piece of the puzzle . . . well, T I L T ! Down the toilet we go.
Our elected officials don’t know up from down. Our elected officials don’t know right from wrong. The programs they currently run are riddled with waste and financial favors to friends and allies – at a tremendous cost to “we the people”. Imagine the tax break everyone would get if our government acted responsibly. Thousands back to everyone.
We need to elect new leaders to represent us. They should spend their time reigning in any of the bad legislation they have created over the last 50 years.
Instead of creating 1,000 plus page laws that they don’t even read, they should work tirelessly to get the federal government back into good standing with the constitution. A byproduct of this will be a much smaller and less expensive government.
Imagine a system where a corrupt government isn’t run by special interest groups, big business, or lobbyists. A government for the people by the people.
In all of Earths history, no other society has been as great as this nation. It will take effort to hold onto that.
Government Should Fear The People.
If the people fear the government, then the government is BROKEN.
Our government is broken folks.
Let’s repair it!
If this health plan is so great, all union members, federal employees, especially members of Congress, should be mandated to participate in it. No exemptions! That’s right — instead of their cushy, top of the line, multi-choice insurance plans that they now have! That’s the bottom line as far as I’m concerned.
Arnold is as much of a dEMOCRAT as a rEPUBLICAN.
We need to stop fighting between the D’s and R’s.
The dolts in Washington have had horribly low approval ratings for years. We need to kick them all out and start over.
“Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing often, and for the same reason!” – Mark Twain
http://www.kickthemallout.com/
I still find it interesting that our veterans have a damn good GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE and no one uses it as an example. They truely deserve the BEST!
I agree that govt> employees and the elected should have the govt. care provided instead of a private option(which everyone else will have the choice). IT WILL STILL BE A CHOICE OF PUBLIC OR PRIVATE PPL!!!
the government doesnt get in the way of VA recipients or Medicare recipeints right now, why would Big Brother start telling my Dr how to treat me with a public option? This is so rediculous that these lies keep being spread because insurance companies would lose their ability to generate profits by denying me coverage (which happens all the time)
Jesus was a socialist.
Anyone who says universal healthcare doesn’t work lives in a hole and believes only what they hear in the media. I have used the public systems in London and Japan which are better than the privatized hospitals here in the city. Not only that I have first hand experience with the U.S.’s universal health system … it’s called the V.A. which is by far the best healthcare system I’ve ever seen. People pay attention the sound bites on 24hr news. But the reality is every single veteran gets life time healthcare, with the best doctors and nurses. This country needs to stop shouting and going off on a hair trigger and engage in intelligent, thoughtful debate.
The people I know that use v.a. health care aren’t exactly happy with it. There are long wait times to see doctors, they don’t always get to see the same doctor,and can’t switch primary doctors easily if they don’t like the one they have. Not everything is covered either. Just a thought, why don’t our service members have the same health care as our elected officals? They are deciding something for us that they are not willing to except themselves and yet they expect us to keep footing the bill for their cushy health care on top of it all. This is just one insult after another coming from our government. HOLD ON TO THE USA has it right we are almost upside down,and WE THE PEOPLE have to stop it before we loose our rights to.
If, as Connie W. stated on July 27, “The feds HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING IN THE HEALTH CARE BUSINESS!!!!!!!!”, then why the heck do we have Medicare/Medicaid?!?!?!?!?!?!
Does it not strike as absurd that Nancy and her friends (and staffs) are micromanaging to the extent of saying just which conversations between Doctor and Patient they will or will not pay for?
The anti-Palin position is that the government bill simply says it will pay for a certain kind of consultation. Why does the government need to do this if it is already good medical practice.
What bothers me is the sight of Washing deciding just what should and what should not be done in the practice. It may be necessary to do this, I don’t know. But it nonetheless is worrisome.
BTW–Palin likes to say things in a provocative way. Perhaps she is merely another hysterical woman. But the fact that a hysterical woman yells “Fire” doesn’t mean there is no fire. Better check it out for yourself.
BTW–it is perfectly correct that the bill as quoted here says that the patient’s wishes shall have the force of a medical order. The word “actionable” seems to give the lawyers scope here.
However, should we arrive at the case where the doctor’s livelihood depends on an entity with a known preference….
At least now I can pit the government against industry. Take industry out of the picture. Do I have more or less control of outcomes?
Jason hit the nail on the head VA and Medicare recipients don’t have govt telling them what will and won’t be paid for… hold on … that’s the current private health-care system that denies care. Hummmm, lets reflect in that for a moment.
“‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as
2 defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’’; and
3 (B) by adding at the end the following new
4 subsection:
5 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation
6 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con8
sultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
12 consultation shall include the following:
13 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad14
vance care planning, including key questions and
15 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo16
ple to talk to.
17 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad18
vance directives, including living wills and durable
19 powers of attorney, and their uses.
20 ‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the
21 role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
22 ‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list
23 of national and State-specific resources to assist con24
sumers and their families with advance care plan25
ning, including the national toll-free hotline, the ad-”
VerDate Nov
Where on this page does it say that “the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier.” You idiots need to get your eyes checked. There is NO mention of a REQUIREMENT for you to do this nor is there one of suicide counseling. Once again people take things out of proportion like the “Obama isn’t really President because he wasn’t born here” crap. Why don’t you people say what you really mean…”I hate Obama because he’s BLACK.” To me that sounds more honest comming from right-wing, back-asswards people like yourselves. There’s your truth!
The truth will not get in the way of a good story any time soon.
I don’t care if Pres. Obama is green with purple polka dots, if you read his books (I have)he is a Socialist and I don’t want America to be Socialist. It (Socialism) is the bedfellow of Communism. And, if a veteran fights for my freedom, he can have all the free health care he wants. I say, GOD BLESS THEM.
To the earlier comment- government is NOT here to protect the people. Our government was created to ensure our freedom. Aren’t government programs like HMO’s what got us into this mess? If there was no government intervention and an actual free market, wouldn’t better healthcare almost have to occur at better prices simply because of competitiveness?
People would no longer need insurance to pay for simple checkups, and insurance prices would also go down simply because those companies would only be covering the much less frequent complicated procedures. I’m just a simpleton, I could be wrong.
Oh and I’m sorry I voted for Obama, there.
If the government healthcare they are planning to provide is anything like the VA hospital we have here in Miami, Fl, we are in big trouble. Just earlier this year, they discovered that the equipment used during Colonoscopies was not being properly sanitized. They had to call a large amount of Vets to get checked for HIV, Hepatitis, and many other diseases. A couple of them I believe tested positive for HIV!! Besides the fact that we are not a SOCIALIST country, and the White House should not be getting involved with our healthcare, our soldiers should be treated with better respect and honor than this. If the men and women who have risked their lives for us are being treated this way, what can we expect for us????
I own a small business goin on 4 years now. I employ 4 people. I do not have a benefit plan for my workers. Ive tried reafing this bill 2 different times. both times it took, me 4 days to read. Im so confused!!!!!!!. I need a lawyer to help me read this. There has to be at least 25+ other documents you need to read just to understand each section, subsection, subparagraph, etc.
I’ve come to the conclusion 95% of everyone on this blog is as confused or more.
“Get ahold of your Congressman” I called my Congrassman. I was put on hold for 30 minutes, untill someone hung the phone up on me. The next day i tried again. Almost imediately i got an answer, and someone was gonna answer my questions, got hung up on again,I called right back and was put on hold for almost an hour,I gave up. I didnt want to see what was going on and swore they would answer me or I would be able to talk to someone. 5 more calls and 3 hang-ups and multiple hours on hold and i still havn’t talked to my congressman.
Is this what our government has come to.What ever happened to “Of the people, by the people, for the people.”
I think what is most hated about this bill is the thought of being made to do something, “TAX IMPOSED-In the case of an individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d), (another subsection!!),at any time during the taxable year, there is HEREBY IMPOSED a tax equal to 2.5% of the excess of-
“(1) the taxpayers modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over
“(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1)with respect to the taxpayer.
In my opinion what I get from that is if u dont meet the requirements of subsection (d), you will have to PAY a tax. !!WHERE DO YOU FIND SUBSECTION (D) AND WHAT DOES IT SAY??
Sec.324. ADDITIONAL RULES RELATING TO HEALTH COVERAGE PARTICIPATION REQUIREMENTS. (I never thought I would see participation and requirement in the same sentence).(2)”coordination of policies realting to enforcing the same requirements through such officers in order to have a coordinated enforcement stategy that avoids duplication of enforcemnet efforts and assigns priorities in enforcement.” Sounds like a war strategy
Im a republican, but I am an American first. I know for a fact that everyone thinks they know whats going on and know exactly what needs to be done. I read the blogs. I listen to the news and the radio, and I’m sick of it. AMERICANS quit fighting. Instead of this your wrong no your wrong crap, come together, put both ideas down and go from there. This bill is the wrong way to do this.
I dont know or claim to know all the answers.I will say we need to fight this, our childrens future can be at stake!!
Thank you and have a great day
If I remember correctly, killing ones self gets you a place in Hell. My nephew killed himself and that is where I believe he is now. AMERICA IS BEYOND BROKE! We owe $100 trillion to social security, Medicaid, Medicare, including SCHIP. How are we going to pay for the promises made? What our useless politicians are doing is promising the same dollar (OURS) to advance other programs so they can claim they are “bringing home the bacon” so they can get more votes. We need to name the Obama Gang members and I have named mine, “Useless Bob, The Rat” Etheridge D-NC).
Let’s face it, the bill is flawed. And no matter what the congress puts forth, some people will have problems with it. My main objection, is that the legislators putting forth this bill are not ready to live by it. Remember our government employees do not – repeat – do not fall under Social Security. The government has their own “retirement” plan and health care option.
As soon as every government employee – elected or otherwise – is willing to jump on the bandwagon for this health care, I’m in. Until, I will fight it tooth and nail. Better yet, I think we should have I trial run of the bill on some of our elected officials.
Most of the comments on this indicate very little thoughtful analysis and no concern for the costs we will incur if we don’t find a solution to the health care financial problem. We certainly need to debate and find the pros and cons of proposed solutions. But, yelling at townhall meetings and not doing your homework on the issue won’t get us out of the mess. I’m 68 years old. I’ve taken the time to plan for my older age. I see many people my age trying to ignore the fact that, so far, nobody gets to live forever. And, their choice to ignore reality puts an incredible burden on their relatives and friends. Their are a lot of possibilities, decisions, etc. that come with getting old. A failure to plan for those times is selfish and irresponsible behavior.
Great comment Tom (238)! I agree 100%.
Healthcare by the government probably will be as successful as… the Post Office, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, as the bail out programs for Auto Makers and Banks… Ask yourself and your representatives why they won’t be sharing the same healthcare? Wake up America! Our forefathers established a government that was meant to be accountable to the people, not the other way around. The government shouldn’t be getting lifelong pensions, nor healthcare on our dime. It is meant to be a position of servitude, in order that they may make laws that not only effect us, but them. What a concept! Until we push the reset button we are going to see more crazy schemes against our well-being than for it. SEIU going to Town Hall Meetings is the equivalent of Brown Shirts who began Hitler’s nightmare… Wake up smell the coffee it is on fire!
Mo #217 You are wrong. Read the entire bill.
Pg 30 Sec 123 – Government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – Health care rationed. You get limited “care” per year.
Pg 42 – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. No individual choice.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs for Benefit Levels for Plans – The Govt will ration your Health care according to station in life.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members – note your Health care WILL be rationed.
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 – 2.5% tax imposed on those who do not have acceptable HC – according to government standards.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 – Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor will be most affected.
PG 253 Line 10-18 – Govt sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgments, etc. Literally sets value of human life.
PG 268 Sec 1141 – Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
PG 272 Sec 1145 – Cancer Hospitals re-evaluated. Welcome to rationing…
Page 280 Sec 1151 – The Govt will penalize hospitals for “preventable readmissions”.
Pg335 Lines 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Government dictate HC – “measuring care”. Rationing.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Government will restrict enrollment of Special needs.
These parts in the bill, leads us up to 425-430.
Tell me do you REALLY believe that our government will give unlimited coverage? Name one country that has universal *unlimited* HC coverage?
Jo has posted another list of distortions. Again I strongly encourage everyone to look at the bill itself and read what it actually says.
Pg 30 Sec 123 – Government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
No, page 30 sets up a panel of health care experts chaired by the Surgeon General, with public input, to standardize benefits in each of three levels of insurance plans: essential, enhanced, and premium. They will not decide what benefits YOU get.
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – Health care rationed. You get limited “care” per year.
Nothing on this page rations health care. It does set limits — to the out-of-pocket expenses families will incur if they are insured at the “essential” level.
Pg 42 – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. No individual choice.
False. Page 42 says the Commissioner is responsbile for establishing standards for health insurance benefits.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs for Benefit Levels for Plans – The Govt will ration your Health care according to station in life.
Says Commissioner will set standards for the three levels of insurance plans. Has nothing to do with rationing anything.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members – note your Health care WILL be rationed.
AARP statement: “Our staff has read all of the legislation circulating in Congress and there are no provisions in these bills that would ration care for our members. None. If any ever did, we would vigorously fight to stop that legislation.”
http://blog.aarp.org/shaarpsession/2009/08/must_read_dont_believe_them.html
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 – 2.5% tax imposed on those who do not have acceptable HC – according to government standards.
True. This is the only accurate statement in the list so far.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 – Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor will be most affected.
Does NOT reduce physician services for ANYONE. It limits what services are to be considered when the gov’t computes target growth rate.
More later if I have time. Anybody else with a mind of their own is welcome to contribute their own line readings.
What we don’t need more of is people posting these email texts that mostly distort what the bill says without verifying their accuracy first.
Thanks.
urbanlegends: Thanks for refuting Jo’s ridiculous misreading of the text. The only weapons those screaming “SOCIALISM!!” have at their disposal is distortion, distraction, and outright falsehood. If they based their arguments on truth alone, they would wither away because they don’t know how to argue honestly any more.
In fact, the only honest argument I’ve seen in this thread from a conservative POV has been from those, like constitutionalist, who make no bones about their belief that our government has no business providing services that directly benefit the citizens. How much the government should provide for the general welfare is the underlying issue in this debate. The other stuff is smoke and mirrors.
So quit regurgitating talking points. We’ve all heard them and they contribute nothing; they only serve to cloud the issues (which, incidentally, is the whole point). Come up with some ideas of your own and approach this debate honestly, or else you’re just wasting everyone’s time and looking a fool in the process.
In response to Carrie. Are you kidding me???? Do you watch the news? Surely you must know someone who has been recently unemployed. Unemployment is at an all time high and guess what…. These people are also uninsured so your comment about the reports of the number of the uninsured has been falsified is FALSE!!! What a greedy uncaring selfish country we have become. When will we ever learn? This “it’s all about me” attitude is what got us in our present situation.
I can see why Dottie has been in need of help from the government in the past….she needs to go back to school and learn how to spell and use proper grammar. I am not trying to put her down, nor am I a bigot, but I counted at least 8 misspelled words/misused grammar errors in her comment. How can you be taken seriously when you do not have command of the English language?
I am still trying to digest all of this information. What I do know is in our small business cost is out of hand. Will this help? I do not know. I would like to understand it better, but I have enough trouble understanding everything the insurance companies throw at me also.
The problem I’m having with this bill ~ It is incomprehensible. One would need a print out, as well as other law, referred to, a lot of flipping back and forth between several documents and a translator. The bill should make sense, it is mostly gible-de-garb. If it is soooo great, why is it sooooo difficult to decipher? Also, did anyone read the sections relating to fines for non-compliance for employers around page 179?! I’ve been trying to decipher this thing, I think I need other legal documents that it refers to. Paragraph after paragraph, making reference to deletion and addition of words like “and”, WHAT? Like I said, translation ~ PLEASE! How could anyone agree to this? It makes no sense.
I find it really sad to see so many lies posted here and all the hysteria to go with those lies. It’s clear from the posts that those freaking out about this bill either have not read it or simply cannot understand the legalize in which it is being drafted. Sarah “death panel” Palin and her ilk sure has done a good job of making sure people don’t hear the truth.
1500 pages and growing. Written by lawyers so that the average college graduate couldn’t begin to understand it. Make it big. Overwhelm the voters. Push it and push it FAST. NOT IN MY AMERICA!!!!
This discussion about Healthcare reform just gets uglier every passing day. Special interest groups and media outlets with a totally different agenda are trying to use fear mongering to prey on the (sad) ignorance of SOME Americans to steer away from positive debate that will help Americans. I should not even spend time talking to these absurd insinuations by right wing extremists whose motives I still don’t understand. These ridiculous misinformation distracts citizenry from intelligent and legitimate debates that could prove more positive to the outcome of healthcare in America, questions like:
1. Why are we proposing healthcare reform?
2. What is wrong with the current system and why is it not acceptable
3. How will the proposed reform be paid for?
4. What are the major cost runners and what are possible solutions to mitigating these costs
True leadership will get past these political bickering and work for the people, not use messy tactics, misinformation, and lies to distract people from a healthy discourse and improve people’s lives.
Oh and by the way I’m of the opinion that Bills are always written in legal language so this is not new, perhaps it is lengthy but healthcare is not a small issue either.
I went to the house bill and read pages 426 thrugh 430 but didn’t find the paragraph on assisted suicide. Maybe you could give closere direction.
This is a lie. The patient consultation will be paid for once every five years IF the patient desires such a consultation. What a lie for those who are too lazy to look for themselves.
It means that Medicare will pay for a living will every 5 years, if you want it. Nothing is mandatory. This is a good thing.
If Terry Chaivo had a living will the Republicans would not have been able to try to impose their will on her and that spectacle could have been averted.
Economicy speaking, IF the plan is put through and lets say that 25% of the population that already has insurance switches to the gov.s health care. Wouldnt that mean that 25% of all income from EVERY SINGLE insurance company would then be lost. Meaning millions of workers would lose tons of money extremly fast which would then cause those millions to need to look for different jobs, then adding to the growing number of people jobless in our country, (which by the way didnt we spend BILLIONS of dollars to fix about a year ago?) Thats at least what i forsee happing if this plan goes through, correct me if im wrong on this point.
As for a question, anyone know where i can find the entire plan written out? theres tons of things that i hear said and want to check them out myself so i know if there a load of crap or not.
Try reading this…. then ask who you trust…
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Medicine/HistoryofMedicine/?view=usa&ci=9780195107920
not so urban legend…
how aobut this one 40 year study uncovered in 1972, now what political parties ruled during this 40 year experiment on blacks??????
In 1932, PHS initiated the Tuskegee Syphilis Study to document the natural history of syphilis. The research subjects were 399 poor African American male sharecroppers from Macon County, Alabama, with latent syphilis and 201 men without the disease who served as controls. Researchers did not disclose the nature of the study to the participants (no informed consent); subjects were deceived by investigators as they were told that they were being treated for “bad blood.” In addition, subjects were coerced to participate through inducements of free transportation, free meals, free medical treatment for minor ailments, and burial insurance. Subjects were given a thorough medical exam and were to be followed for six to eight months during which time their disease would not be treated. Initially, there was no intent to deny anyone treatment on a long-term basis.
Hold it….HOLD IT!
Elections have consequences. We won and He (the President) campaigned on this bill. So, if you voted Democratic and you are now supprised about this bill, then you were not paying attention…. were you?
And for all supposed “constutionalists” out there… If what the Democratic Party is doing is unconstitutional, the conserative Supreme Court (It is you know 5-4) will strike it down. So, no harm no foul.
“Socialized medicine” I hear these words alot. If you don’t want it you can keep your own insurance. By the way, Medicare and Medicaide is “socialized medicine”.
Am I getting through to any of the knuckleheads out there?
The thing that many of the opponents of this bill fail to take into account when fearing a communist takeover is that the public government healthcare is optional. If you read even the first ten pages of the bill this becomes apparent. In paragraph (3)(B), on page 5 it states: “This division creates a new Health Insurance Exchange, with a public health insurance option alongside private plans;”
Tim, as to what you said about the insurance companies losing 25% of their income, that is highly unlikely. Public healthcare will mainly appeal to poorer people who either don’t have healthcare now because they can’t afford it or who do have healthcare but would benefit substantially from getting cheaper healthcare.
Aside from that, people who can afford private healthcare will likely keep it because many of the anti-healthcare advocates are right about one thing: bureaucracy will probably make public healthcare much less desirable than private healthcare.
You can read the full healthcare bill here:
What a bunch of ignorant or misleading statements we are seeing on the evils of the healthcare bill.
The bill requires euthanasia counselling…BS…The bill says you can not receive counseling more often than every 5 years unless their is a significant change in your personal situation. Get it, they don’t want to pay for yearly counseling. Believe it or not, end of life planning is a good thing. Have you ever heard of an advance directive for healthcare? i.e., if you become a veggie but they can keep your heart beating, would you want that, or not. If you are old and your health is declining, would you want to let your preferences be known, i.e., do everything possible to keep me alive a long as possible or, if I am in a coma with know hope of waking and clearly in pain, maybe I would like to die naturally.
On other topics, insurance plans are by state. So say, you come down with cancer as a 50 year old but would like to move from Texas to NC for whatever reason. Right now, you might have a great big problem getting your cancer covered in NC because it is a preexisting condition. Guess what, without the changes in this bill, you’re stuck and can’t afford to move because you’d have to cover all your cancer treatments out of pocket.
OK, you’re self employed and have private medical insurance for your family of five. It costs you $1200 a month for a comprehensive plan, but you have to deal with a 5k per person annual deductible just to keep the monthly cost within reach. Well guess, what, your premium is going up 15% a year. Why, is it because the cost of medical care is going up. A little, but look at insurance company profits and you’ll see they aren’t hurting. So what’s wrong with a little competition from a government run plan. We all “know” the government can’t do anything right or efficiently, so what are the insurance companies worried about? Surely, it’s not about giving up their obscene profts…
WOW!!! I’m reading through this, trying to figure some of this dribble out and what do i see. WHAT the heck does Sarah Palin have to do with this????. The election is over , get over it. If you think you need to keep up the name calling this, then you are what is wrong with this country. Give me something with some sort of truath in it that Sarah Palin did to make all of this happen and maybe i will listen. If you can only think of what is said on the news, then STOP. Nobody wants to hear it.
Ok, first of all I am a christain and love my country and love all people no matter there background or color etc etc. However it is the greed of man that has caused this terrible situation that we are in and it is well known and documented that big health care insurence companies find every way they can to not pay claims. So how do you right wing jerks propose to fix the issue. If the rich were not so greedy and gave to charity and took care of the poor as JESUS did, oh and as a side note he healed the sick. It is the responsabilty of those who have to take care of those who don’t if you believe in the bilble that is heaven mandated. I currently don’t have healthcare and I don’t live in an area that I can get a good paying job so that I can have health care, but yet I still take care of my parents who are over 80. Well at least they have heath care wish I did.
“IF THE RICH WEREN’T SO GREEDY”, “GAVE MORE TO CHARITY”. Where do you live?. The rich pay more taxes, and give millions of dollars to needy charities. What do you do? You take, thats what you do. Then you get on here and spout out that the rich are the whole problem. If Jesus was so great, what happened to him? He was killed, for going against the government. I’m a christian as well, but as a christian your job is to read and interpret the gospal, not blame.
after reading part of this bill,im as confused as some of the people who have to vote on it, this bill also looks like the government will tell private insurance companies what to do, please stay out of my life, if the government wants to cover people who dont have insurance then write a bill to do that and leave people who have insurance alone,
This is what Universal HC gives you in Massachusetts. It is Bankrupting the City Hospital, http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/03/02/mass_healthcare_reform_is_failing_us/?page=full read this!!
To the person who said the comment about Russia was idiotic…have you ever been to Russia? Have you ever seen a Russian hospital? We have been to Russia many times and have seen the conditions, not only of hospitals, but other services. Some of us are involved in bringing children to the US to have operations that they can’t or won’t do in Russia.
Who is John Galt?
Type HOSPICE FOOD WATER into Google and understand what is occurring TODAY in the industry. My mother was encouraged to transfer my father from nursing care to hospice promising great care. They proceeded to stop all food and water once he arrived. No one in the family knew until we noticed it. One sentence in the papers she signed gave the doctor the right to make decisions, no clear explanation given of what would happen! The staff drugged him up so much that he couldn’t communicate. Please, stay out of hospital run hospices unless you want to be put on starvation. We got him out and back to nursing care where he could die with food, water and love. He had 5 more weeks of life and the entire family was able to converse with dad again before passing on peacefully and comfortably.
Let’s just stop this JackA$$ debate. It’s obvious that people on this site that have health care and can afford it want nothing to do with helping the less fortunate. The majority of the people in this country are all about “me” and to he!! with you. We will never fix anything in this country because the majority of the people here are self centered and greedy. Honesty, civility, integrity has all collapsed in America. The rich control mostly everything and that’s the way they want it. So, stop this jacka$$ debate and move on to screwing each other over.
If you buy this you most likely still think Obama is a “Muuslimmm” and not legally a citizen….
At least I’ve seen some better arguments on this page as compared to Fox. There are some real nincompoops at Fox. I liked what one person said in here about the government already being involved in Health care. I just don’t understand how some people can’t see that, if and when we all pay the same for health care there will be no more haves and have nots. And as for people saying that they’re happy with their health care, let me ask you this. “Do you like the fact that your insurance rates are climbing faster than your pay increases?”
Forget all the discussion about health care for one minute and think about this instead…..Currently, government spending is 45.19% of Gross Domestic Product. Attached is the link for confirmation. Now add health care which is 17% of GDP. That brings the total percent of government spending to more than 62% of GDP or almost two-thirds of our entire economy. I don’t care if you’re liberal, conservative or just plain stupid, this has to start raising some red flags somewhere. Wake up folks. This in not sustainable.
Forgot to leave the link to back up my previous comment. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.html
I have read the bill and page 425 does not state they are going to provide service for suicide. I wish you people would stop twisting words around. The only thing that is evil is the fact that since Obama was put in office you have been judging him. The man has been in office for 7 months and you expect perfection. How about you all judge the idiot who got us in this mess in the first place.
Some good comments from many. But I continue to be amused (and, frankly, disgusted) by those like Jo who will adhere to a wrong-headed position no matter how much evidence is presented. I assume to the Jo’s of the world that evolution is a theory, the world is 6,000 years old, climate change is a sham, we can drill ourselves to energy independence, aliens landed in Area 51, and George Bush was a wonderful president.
It’s amazing how people are soooo scared of this health care plan, I am more scared of the stupid insurance companies that can take your coverage away anytime they want, and if you have an HMO be more scared, since they can say whether you need treatment or not even if your doctor says you need it.
Capitalism is about choices, and we really never choose to be sick. Government needs to step in, it really needs to happen and provide choices to people.
Medicare is a total rip-off now. You HAVE to take it. On a $125.00 bill for a pap smear, breast exam, etc., Medicare allows $28.00 to be paid to the Dr. Then that $28.00 goes to your deductible. Unless you have huge medical expenses, Medicare never pays for anything cause the tiny amounts they allow go to your deductible. You have to have other insurance from an insurance co. Thank God for our BC/BS which only costs slightly more than the worthless Medicare that they deduct from your SS check. Do you think dr.’s should go to college and then have to treat you for free. How many who don’t get health insurance have cell phones, ipods, huge TV’s, cable etc? Wake up The government is not going to help make things better——–they never have.
I also read the provisions of the 1018 page document. I am a professional risk manager and retired government administrator. Unlike Emery I do have actual experience. The issues is these kind of laws set the minimum and mandates an administrative process which is usually compulsive. This absolutely is the frame work for governmental controlled euthanasia.
1. The USA has the BEST health care on the planet
2. Health Care and excessive spending by the government leads to Government Control of YOUR LIFE!
Debt WILL require higher taxes = less free agency of the public, more money and power to the government. The US government is overrun by lifetime politicians, including the Presidency. Do you really want lifetime career politicians running your life vs. a true civil servants who come from the private sector and have the best interest of the people at heart and not the success of their ” gov. business”. Obama is like any other businessman. He wants his business to be as big and as powerful as possible…he knows nothing else. The problem is that what made the USA the greatest country is our freedom and a government that focused on protecting our freedoms, not controlling our freedoms.
Gov. Health care = government now controls the solution to a basic human fear, pain & death = less free agency of the public
If I control your money and your health. I own you.
A few people have made religious comments here and strictly from an objective perspective wasn’t it Satan’s plan to take away man’s free agency and force us all to be good. It’s a compelling proposition. I’ll take care of you. All you have to do is…do exactly what I tell you to.
Then Jesus says, “No, we’ll do it the right way and give everyone free agency.” You have the right to be a loser, you have the right to have charity, you have the right to study and be smart, you have the right to blow your mind on video games. It’s your human right to live how you choose. Hopefully you choose to be a productive and positive influence on humanity; but still, it’s your choice. Anything else is slavery. Wasn’t it a huge step in history because the US just had their half black president because, even though it was unrelated to Obama, ancestors of Black American’s suffered the lack of free agency and now they are voting for policies that will take it away again.
Like I said. It’s a compelling offer; but, at the end of the day the government can’t deliver and taking more taxes and controlling your health care will only take away more of American’s free agency.
The bill-of-rights and The Constitution were put in place to protect our God given right to freedom, it now hangs by a thread and most American’s don’t even get it.
Government can not fix health care.
This bill is NOT about providing competition for private sector health care.
It is about removing it completely. Obama has said this himself repeatedly. This is a process to move to a single payer (i.e. tax paid government run) health care system.
I keep seeing comments about how it’s fair to pass this bill because private insurance rates are high and the insurance companies need competition. Pass this bill and there won’t be any competition or choices in health care.
This is bull. It’s not saying that it’s to promote people to commit suicide. it’s to keep other people from artificially keeping you alive against your will.
Gives the elderly the chance to sign a “Do Not resuscitate” ahead of time.
I’m 18 years old, so automatically my opinion is null and void, right? Because of lack of experience, right? Wrong. This bill is going to use tax money to justify and encourage euthanasia. My money, my parents’ money, and my GRANDPARENTS money. My grandparents are WWII veterans, they’re the greatest generation, they’re why we’re hear arguing about this crap, and you’re (Government Legislation in General) going to make a bill that exempts the officials while endangering my grandparents, after some years my parents, and, GOD FORBID, myself to be coerced into “legal murder for a price because you’re sick and costing us to much money.” (Note: Yes I used the word GOD, sue me or discredit my opinion quickly!)
Unbelievable. I promise on all the honor and dignity of America’s forefathers and veterans that I WILL NOT LIVE IN THE US when I have the means to escape. Socialism is speeding towards us: Gov’t owned banking system, Gov’t owned automotive industry, soon to be Gov’t owned and operated healthcare…I”M NOT RANTING, I will –GLADLY– give up some of my freedoms to another country than have them bought out, signed away, or outsourced by our government.
NO MATTER WHAT YOUR OPINION IS ON THIS MATTER, IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE REALITY THAT THIS IS ANOTHER MOVE TOWARDS A SOCIALISTIC AMERICA.
Shalom.
I’ve worked 29 years in the medical fields and I can’t remember a week going by when I had to watch families/next of kin scrambling around near the last minutes of life of a love one, trying to get a living will signed. These people who are talking about this Bill proposing suicide for patients….how many liars can I call you. If you oppse this bill do so….you don’t have to make up stuff you hear from talking heads on TV.
To continue urbanlegend’s refutation of Jo’s claims:
PG 253 Line 10-18 – Govt sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgments, etc. Literally sets value of human life.
Insurance companies and the government already set values for a doctor’s time, professional judgements, etc. Insurance companies pay physicians based using several different schemes. Some use diagnosis related groups (a system used to classify hospital cases in to over 500 different groups based on diagnoses, the kind of procedures, age, sex, discharge summaries, and any complications. Others pay doctors for the number of procedures they perform and what type they are. For example, if a primary care doctor gives you a flu shot, they will get X amount and if a surgeon performs a 5 hours surgery on you, they will get Z amount. The amount paid are different based on the type of procedure, length, amount of knowledge and training the doctor may have had, etc). I could go on at length about different insurance plans, but time is short.
Even you yourself have already set a value to your life. THINK. When you buy insurance, what plan did you buy? Did you buy the bare-minimum plan that covers basic medical care or did you buy the Cadillac of health plans?
PG 268 Sec 1141 – Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
Wow. Why did you even pick this one? The government already regulates rentals and purchases of wheelchairs. This is an amendment to the Social Security Act that changes the phrase ‘‘power-driven wheel chair’’ to ‘‘complex rehabilitative power-driven wheelchair recognized by the Secretary as classified within group 3 or higher’’
PG 272 Sec 1145 – Cancer Hospitals re-evaluated. Welcome to rationing…
This is another amendment to the Social Security Act. All this will do is let cancer hospitals know if they spend more or less than other cancer hospitals and suggest ways they can either cut costs or spend more.
Page 280 Sec 1151 – The Govt will penalize hospitals for “preventable readmissions”.
This is already happening. And this is a good thing. This will make hospitals more accountable for mistakes done BY the hospital. This measure will not pay hospitals for screwing up. Say your aunt gets admitted to the hospital for a simple procedure (appendectomy, say). If, while in the hospital, your aunt comes down with hospital acquired pneumonia, this section tells the hospitals that the government will not pay for the treatment your aunt gets to treat her pneumonia. This makes hospitals accountable for their mistakes and makes them strive to be better providers for everyone.
Pg335 Lines 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Government dictate HC – “measuring care”. Rationing.
This is yet another amendment to the Social Security Act. This section states that the government will measure the hospital care and its outcomes. Hospitals will be required to report the quality of care it provides to its patients. With this information, they will then compare the hospitals reported quality of care to the quality of care those who have Medicare receive. This will set the bar for the quality of care you receive (in other words – it means that the government is saying to the hospitals “you must be able to provide AT LEAST this level of care, or we will penalize you or recommend ways to improve) . It will not ration health care.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Government will restrict enrollment of Special needs.
Yet another amendment to the Social Security Act. Specifically, Section 1858(f)(1). This section of the Social Security Act allows special Medicare plans that have been set up for people disabilities to be able to restrict their enrollment to specifically one type of disability. For example, if there is a special Medicare fund for people with a specific disability, ONLY people WITH that disability are able to enroll. This amendment to the act simply extends the ability of these special needs plans to restrict their enrollment to only one specific disability.
Jo, your comments are passionate (that, or you’re the best troll I’ve encounterd – and if so – kudos to you), but many times, it is wise to use some logic and reasoning before reacting. Please take a moment and read the bill for yourself. And when you see a word like ‘restrict’ or ‘limit’ or ‘manage’ or ‘mandate’, don’t think right away the government is taking away your liberties immediately. Be rational and continue reading. Most times, it is imposing these restrictions and limits on and setting standards forhospitals for OUR safety.
FutureAmerica,
I hope you realize that your grandparents generation was the generation that set America on a path towards a larger government. The Social Security Act was passed in 1935.
Secondly, the government is already heavily involved in health care. Medicare (which I am sure both your grandparents receive) ring a bell?
Yea, Medicare is a government program. And those Social Security Checks you’re grandparents are getting – the signatory – Uncle Sam.
Dude, I am about your age. Go and read the material for yourself and learn something. Don’t follow what pundits on TV tell you.
My grandmother is dying of Alzheimers. Discussions we had long before she became ill were hard but absolutely SHOULD be required. I know HER wishes, and no they were not in any way pushed on her by a doctor or lawyer. All that matters in the decisions we have to make is what we know SHE wants. Noone should have any say in end of life issues until they have had to watch someone they love live in pain and agony, unable to function, move, or communicate. That is not life.
Just because we can keep people alive, doesn’t mean we should.
PS. Dealing with medicare has been SO FRIGGIN EASY compared to private insurance. I would kill to have coverage that good.
Mo,
As an aware denizen I fully understand the Medicare viewpoint of this issue. I’m not sure if I understand the comment of my grandparents generation setting America on a path to a larger gov’t…it was inevitable, yes, but the Socialist system it will inevitably become (or already has become) was not their fault.
My biggest problem is that the lack of character in modern America, something that in our grandparents’ generation hardly existed, has destroyed our economy and now is trying to leak into every part of everyday life. Besides the myriad of banks, car companies, and miscellaneous institutions that are all owned by the government, we have a national debt that will NEVER be rectified.
How does this correlate with the Healthcare issue? Now not only do we have a decimated economy, but our quality of life will plummet if this new system is implemented.
Look up the numbers and facts at the quality of life, the horrific queuing times for treatment, the rampant rejection of severe cases, the higher mortality rate of those countries, and the overall insufficiency of the UK system, for one example. The reality and facts are cruel.
NOTE: I appreciate the tone of this discussion, it is surprising non-hostile: THE WAY IT SHOULD BE. It’s pleasant to have a mature conversation about the issues with others, regardless of varying opinion. Thank You.
Christmas many years ago, visiting my mother’s beloved bachelor brother in the home he and my mother had grown up in, I caught a glimpse of scrawled instructions on his bedside table: should I be found in a debilitaing condition I do not wish to be rescusitated. I was profoundly touched by this simple wish of this man. My uncle was a religious man, lived his entire life in the house in which he was born, cared for his parents when they grew old and died in that house, appreciated science and medicine, he was contented with the life he had lived but feared the prolonged suffering of a debilitating disease. Within a couple of months, my poor uncle did have a stroke, was found and rushed to a hospital; with no one to speak for him, he was given a series of ineffective treatments, suffered several additional debilitating strokes that left him completely incapacitated and then spent the next 6 years of his life in a dismal nursing home, never able to recover, never returning to his home, never again being able to communicate with his loved ones. My mother and her siblings watched him suffer while they fought for the right to manage his care, because of course the system assumes relatives only have the worst intentions. Really too bad that my uncle didn’t have the benefit of a discussion with his doctor about how he wanted the end of his life to unfold. And of course if the republicans have their way, neither will the rest of us.
another story. I’ve heard all my life and even more so lately how terrible the english system is. But my husband is english and I’ve been visiting that country for 20 years. I’ve never seen or been told anything by his relatives or friends, or by the many ordinary people I’ve met that compares with the complaints I hear from my american relatives, friends and co-workers about their health care. My English mother-in-law lived to be 94 and I was amazed at how many basic services she received to keep her healthy and living independently while she could that no american insurance company would cover. In her last few years, she lived with my brother and sister-in-law and they were given support to help bathe her, and “respite” which was someone to care for mum so they could take a few weeks vacation a year. Of course keeping mother-in law out of a nursing home saved the “socialist state” a lot of money and its likely their humanitatian approach is what allows the system to survive. On the other hand, my father died 4 years ago after a prolonged illness and my siblings and I still can’t figure out how much is owed for medical bills or what they were for. I’m sure there are issues and complaints about the English system, but as I said they don’t hold a candle to the complaints I hear from americans about their insurance companies not covering procedures, the restrictions to people’s job mobility, the fear of what will happen if they lose their jobs, the reams of non-intelligible paperwork and notifications about charges that look like you’re reading a foreign language. Please give us healthcare reform and give it to us now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with canada. The way people are handeling this situation can be veiwed even on this forum. The “debate” has resorted to meger namecalling and insults against the parties. The stereotypes are also evident as in the cases like constitutionalist’s catholisism. We shouldn’t be participating in such child’s play and we should be READING the constitution, the bill, and some research. With the way party politics has polluted everything from votes to the media, the only way to form an unbiased oppinion is to actually LOOK into things.
Ovangeline,
DITO.
Everyone blames the other party…missing what’s important. THE ISSUES.
Knowledge (of the bill and its meaning) is the only way to debate reasonably and without partisan biases.
The pathetic part is: almost everyone, from Congress to Main Street, will continue to act immaturely and in the end, all that will be left is THE REALITY of the bill and whether or not it has been passed…and the aftershock of those great decisions.
as an attorney, I write end of life documents, and the only thing this thing says is that every five years the patient is given the option of writing or updating his/her living will, durable health care power of attorney, etc. I am also an extreme right wing conservative fundamental Christian, and I say, here and now, if you think this supports euthanasia, you are stupid.
I may not know much, but I one thing I know for certain is that I don’t want to be on the same side of any issue as all of the crazy, irrational, screaming, demented sounding old people. I didn’t vote for Obama, but these people are freaks and I want nothing to do with their politics or their fascistic vision of America.
I am a physician and this bill scares the crap out of me. All I can say is, the people putting this together do NOT have an MD after their names. For god’s sake, these are POLITICIANS, NOT doctors. Why don’t they ask US how to take care of people? I don’t trust the government to run the post office, let alone run health care!
Please “Constitutionalist”, read the constitution! By the way, have you ever been to Russia?
I find that liberals are only too eager to take what they are being spoon fed by other liberals and this(obvious) liberal site. I have been obtaining these Advanced Directives for client/patients for 25 years, and I can tell you that every SENIOR who has Medicare/Medicaid and ever been in a hospital, a home-health agency, hospice or other medical care ALREADY has an opportunity to get a Living Will, Durable Power of Attorney (called something else in New York).
This is the part that concerns me: “(III) provides TRAINING for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the GOALS AND USE OF ORDERS for life sustaining treatment;”
No training is needed on this issue. I’ve been doing this for 25 years. Why does the Government have TO TRAIN SOMEONE ABOUT THE CONTINUUM OF CARE AND GOALS? They are already pretty d.a.m.n.e.d clear………unless the Government wants to tinker with them AND TRAIN PEOPLE ON HOW TO REACH GOALS, which are provided by who? “The Secretary.” BTW, I’m a masters level social worker and this is a regular part of any medical social worker’s work load. No need for special training (the instructions are included on the FREE forms, if the family wants to do this by themselves). It’s actually a pretty cut-dried procedure. What now do we need to get TRAINING to reach GOALS?
I forgot to say that when I worked in a private and VA hospital, my MAIN DUTY was to get Advanced Directives on each and every patient IF THERE WERE NONE ON THEIR CHARTS, as well as when I was working in home-health. First order of business.
FutureAmerica,
I only bring up the point that our grandparent’s generation brought up the initial movement towards a more socialized culture. After the Great Depression and WWI, people were desperate for some kind of ’social insurance” to protect them from poverty and unemployment and something to care for and provide for the elderly. And the government proposed that it should be the government’s duty to do these things.
With regard to your comment about socialized systems in Europe, I can only comment on impressions from my cousins who live in London. They really enjoy the luxury of seeing a physician when they need to and not have to pay for it. The lines aren’t as problem as they make it out to be (according to them).
I do know that they use cost-benefit analysis for the services like drugs – so if a drug has little or nor proven benefit to the patient, and is yet insanely expensive, the government won’t pay for it – but that doesn’t mean it is not privately available.
With regard to the rationing of the care – it is rationed on the grounds of clinical need. So if you’re having a stroke or a heart attack, you won’t have to wait. But say you surgery on your sinuses because you have terrible sinus headaches a few times a week. Well you may need to wait a few weeks before getting treatment. Not a bad payoff in my opinion – for free care for everyone.
I have had hard times in life and good times. Insurance threw my work and insurance threw the gov. When i was insured threw the gov. I didnt get as good of care. It makes me question the gov insurance as well as the docs.
p.s. not everyone who gets help from the gov. is just looking 4 a hand out. Perhaps some really need the help. It should be a short term thing though, until u can get back on your feet.
The people yelling the most, about finding a solution to the nations health care crisis, are mainly the people that get the best of the best health insurance, paid for with taxpayer dollars. The health industry needs reform, so that all American’s can afford basic health care and care in emergencies. If these same yelling people want the extras, like their special prescription riders, PT, OT, sleep studies, or other non-life threatening services, they should pay for those services out of their own pockets. Just because they negotiated for free health insurance for life, and want all the perks they can get, it does not mean the money grows on trees. Once these problems are corrected, the taxpayer may find he is not paying out so much for socialize medicine. New rules in health care should not include every pampered care treatment you can get and and driving the cost of premiums to these unaffortable rates. Today, some people are spoiled with what they have. And now it has to be fixed! There is not enough money to give these special interest groups free health insurance for life while others do without. All Americans have the right to try to stay healthy.
Sue Lewis MD,
As a medical student, I would like to know why this bill ’scares the crap out of [you]“.
Most bills related to healthcare are not put together by doctors (though at times they should be). Most people are not doctors. But everyone has been or will be a patient. It only seems fair to have equal say in the matter.
In answer to the person that asked if I would give up my social security and medicare. The answer is YES. Both are the exact reason to not trust the government in providing Health Care. Social Security is anything but. It robs people of personal responsibility. It does not make people think for themselves. It enriched the people in power for personal gain (by spending “borrowed” future SS contributions on politically connected projects). Medicare dollars are far below the money spent on services etc. etc.
I do not see the reasoning behind forcibly taking money from people that do not agree on how it is spent.
Example. I do not approve of the manufactured wars. I resent my money being used for bombs and killing.
Why is it now ok to force me to provide for Universal Health Care? For my own good? Isn’t that my decision?
It is just me or is the government about to just take over every single area of your life!! I don’t care how great this supposed plan is it’s about CONTROL folks. The government is using all the excuses in the book to control everything. The government always dresses up all there savior efforts as something helpful, so that they can be your mother in law. The bail-out to save all the banks.. which I might currently add that they pretty much will run the banks now!! Car companies now owned by the government. It’s obvious… Why did they even come up with this as an issue to handle NOW when folks are broke!!! Because they WANT to appear to be your savior so you can give up your freedom!
Oh and if the government CAN’T even handle the simple food industry. Which I might add that the FDA is the same group of folks that allow companies to put things like sodium hydroxide in your food. How the heck do you think the health care is going to be. Vaccines anyone… probably will be absolutely FORCED!!
It would be wise for people on both sides of the fence to do a little more homework on what is(or is not) included in the proposed policies. The majority of the arguments coming from both sides of the political spectrum are accusatory ad hominem. We need to be figuring out what is fact/fiction and making reasonable decisions based on logic and previous performance by those proposing the changes. On a separate note, Jesus is completely irrelevant in this matter, adding religion to a discussion on healthcare is completely pointless.
(267) Scott says: “Who is John Galt” – Hilarious! I love that book.
I would like to look closely at the portions of Bill 3200 that have made everyone so angry. The copy I am looking at is 1018 pages long. Can someone who is concerned about the bill PLEASE site the areas by specific reference, so I can go to that language? I really want to understand and make an informed decision for myself. Thanks in advance!
What would I do?
Someone said: “…I mostly worry about the effect on medical research, progress and innovation….Without a profit motive…I fear that our progress in medicine will be stalled.”
This is complete rubbish! The UK has had universal healthcare since 1948. Are we to assume they don’t have access to modern technology, or that UK medicine doesn’t produce research or technology? 1953 Cambridge describe DNA, 1972 a British engineer invented CT scans, 1978 the first test tube baby was born in the UK. That’s three innovations off the top of my head.
For the love of God, stop repeating what you’re being told on conservative talk radio and Fox News 10,000 times over every day and DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. This is much too important an issue to allow others to dictate what you believe. WAKE UP! Are people denied healthcare in the UK? Yes. Are people denied healthcare in the US? Yes. Do people from Canada come to the US for treatment? Yes. US citizens also travel to India for treatment. It doesn’t mean one system is better than the other. It means it was better for that individual. Stop using facts which are not comparative in any meaningful manner to come to irrational conclusions about the quality of healthcare systems.
This is all political B.S. If a Republican president had come up with this bill, everyone bashing it on here would be loving it, and all of the Democrats would be looking for holes in it.
That’s the problem with politics, people choose their “side” which leads to them forming a conclusion before knowing facts. THEN they go back and find “facts” that support their conclusion.
That goes 100% against the Scientific Method.
Here is what we must understand:
1. Barack Obama and his gang could really give a big snort if you have health or care. Think about it. They’ve stolen everything out of our Social Security Trust Fund, so they have no way to pay obligations in the future except by borrowing and printing up more currency. It’s too their advantage when Americans die, because it’s just one less person to support.
2. Obama’s gang is out of money (wasted most of it) and now they’re desperate. What Obama and his gang really want is to get their hands on all that loot the medical insurance companies already steal from us. Robbing private industry once again is all that is left to them. It’s still a huge source of funds.
3. Only about 15% of the people will, at any given time be using this gov’t medical insurance (not everyone gets sick at the same time) so that frees up hundreds of billions for Obama and his gang to fretter away elsewhere; on foreign military adventures, foreign aid and welfare, world gov’t donations and of course, their personal luxuries and extravgances. They will indulge themselves in every form of pleasure and excess to the very end.
Urban legend said:
Jo has posted another list of distortions.
No I did not. You are distorting this – not me. Here’s is exact wording from the bill, since short and to the point somehow confuses people here.
Pg 30 Sec 123 – Government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get…
Line 16-17 Exact wording: “Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits…”
Decided by a GOVERNMENT run committee/panel, who will decide the benefits of each level/package — they decide treatments and benefits by virtue of the three gov’t HC plans.
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – Health care rationed. You get limited “care” per year.
“(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits pack
age with respect to an individual (or family) for
a year does not exceed the applicable level spec
ified in subparagraph (B).
9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable
10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is
11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a
12 family.”
It is LIMITED CARE, they SAY it is LIMITED. BTW — “Rationing” by definition is limiting peoples care.
“PG 85 – SEC. 203. BENEFITS PACKAGE LEVELS.
5 (a) IN GENERAL.—The Commissioner shall specify
the benefits to be made available under Exchange-participating health benefits plans during each plan year, consistent with subtitle C of title I and this section”
The gov’t specifies benefits made available each year (this ALSO obviously means the limits of said benefits and who will receive them.)
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members – note your Health care WILL be rationed.
More than just this bill. There is hidden HC provisions in the stimulus bill (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.+1:) that would apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council.
The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board. (from NICE) This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. In the UK treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly.
Can’t happen in the USA?? Think again.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 – Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid.
(c) LIMITATION ON PHYSICIANS’ SERVICES INCLUDED IN TARGET GROWTH RATE COMPUTATION TO
SERVICES COVERED UNDER PHYSICIAN FEE SCHEDULE.
{goes on about physicians and target growth rates…then provisions for *sustainable* growth rates:}
(ii) in the heading of subsection (f),
19 by inserting ‘‘AND TARGET GROWTH
20 RATE’’ after ‘‘SUSTAINABLE GROWTH
21 RATE’’…
Obviously LIMITS on care and available doctors would be considered to make the HC sustainable according to the growth rate.
Urban legend said: What we don’t need more of is people posting these email texts that mostly distort what the bill says without verifying their accuracy first.
Jo: I did verify their accuracy. I’ve read the bill, I didn’t get this from a e-mail. I’m not from any alleged ‘astro turf” I’m just a citizen reading the bill.
As we have discussed this must be cross referenced it to SS/Medicare legislation, ALSO the stimulus bill and other legislation where the Gov’t is slipping in line items etc…
If you think the current administration is going to come out and TELL you directly about the limits that will result from this HC bill, your naive. Want something to compare to? Go look at Canada with their waiting lists and their 60% tax rate, or NICE in the UK – where they have high tax and RATION HC.
Universal HC doesn’t work. It’s been proven. Do we need HC reform? Yes, but just not this bill.
Well you at least offer a choice Dottie! (Entry #5) Leave it up to the government and they will elect to put you, your children, parents, friends and anyone else to sleep, they deem a burden on the system. Akin to lethal injection, which I’m sure you’re against! You’re choice was “Do you want to live when your 90 with no quality of life and be kept alive by machines, and costing the govermwnt and your family thousands of dollars think about it!!!” END OF QUOTE! And stop worrying about what it cost the government they don’t.
PG 253 Line 10-18 – Govt sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgments, etc. Literally sets value of human life.
Mo: Insurance companies and the government already set values for a doctor’s time.
Jo: True to an extent, however, a physician can charge as he wishes in a open market — under this plan the physician will be TOLD what he will make by gov’t. This will result in LESS doctors. Why would anyone want to pay hundreds of thousands in student loans to become a doctor, if they are unable to re-pay due to gov’t limits on income?
There is so much more to this bill — the unintended consequences could be devastating.
PG 272 Sec 1145 – Cancer Hospitals re-evaluated. Welcome to rationing…
Mo: All this will do is let cancer hospitals know if they spend more or less than other cancer hospitals and suggest ways they can either cut costs or spend more.
Jo: Tell me do you think gov’t “suggestions” will be only suggestions? Or do you think they will insist on price caps for services? Better yet name a country that has *unlimited* gov’t HC for it’s citizens.
Page 280 Sec 1151 – The Govt will penalize hospitals for “preventable readmissions”.
Mo: This is already happening. And this is a good thing.
Jo: So, if you have to go back to the hospital because they set your broken arm WRONG – getting turned away is a good thing?
Pg335 Lines 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Government dictate HC – “measuring care”. Rationing.
Mo: Hospitals will be required to report the quality of care it provides to its patients. With this information, they will then compare the hospitals reported quality of care to the quality of care those who have Medicare receive.
Jo: You are FOR giving up your 4th amendment rights to privacy??? Wow.
Gov’t has NO BUSINESS discussing our private matters. If the hospitals want to tally nameless faceless data to share, that one thing, but gov’t invasion of privacy is quite another.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Government will restrict enrollment of Special needs.
Mo: Yet another amendment to the Social Security Act. Specifically, Section 1858(f)(1). This section of the Social Security Act …
Jo: You miss the point — this is SS/medicare — we all understand that medicare is limited. Private insurance is NOT limited we can pay as much as we like for the coverage we want. If the gov’t plan eliminates private insurance (as planned by the BO administration — see above youtubes/info I’ve posted of them admitting to it.)then we will be at the mercy of gov’t.
Gov’t as the only (single payer) option is a slippery slope to gov’t control of our daily lives.
If having a well thought our opinion of this bill is considered trolling – then so be it.
I have read the bill. I am against gov’t take over of our HC — I am for LESS gov’t intrusion in our daily lives. Gov’t has never run anything well. SS is a mess. Education is a MESS. etc…
Since we already have Medicaid (and it’s BROKE) why do we need more gov’t HC?? Medicaid covers the poorest Americans already.
Do you people really believe that gov’t will not raise taxs **ON YOU** to pay for this? It won’t be just the rich paying. The rich are leaving the USA in droves because of this sort of legislation, who will eventually have to pay if there are no more rich to soak?? YOU WILL, that’s who.
Simple supply and demand dictates this.
JM said: This is all political B.S. If a Republican president had come up with this bill, everyone bashing it on here would be loving it, and all of the Democrats would be looking for holes in it.
===========
Wrong, virtually all republicans were against TARP and they are against this as well. They are consistent in their desire to limit government (as our founders intended) – as are libertarians, and constitutionalists.
Ann
This discussion started about the section starting on page 425 of the bill. People here should really do more research before spouting off.
This bill as with most of Supreme ruler Obama’s plans are described in his book when he outlines how to destroy the U.S.A.
READ HIS BOOK IT TELLS YOU WHAT HIS PLANS ARE FOR OUT NATION
Mo,
There are definitely mixed reports from both TV and internet sources (with considerably different world views) of a very poor socialized healthcare system. I am inclined to dispute those claims that socialized healthcare is significantly increasing the mortality rate and torturing its citizens with egregious queuing times for treatment. These countries are not as advanced as we are and thus, in many aspects, this probably hinders them from providing the best coverage available. But I don’t believe that it’s as bad as the media is making it to be.
There are really two vantage points to this discussion: those who are against it because they have good or even adequate healthcare and insurance, and those who advocate it because they don’t have decent healthcare coverage. (This is not always the case, but more often than not, it is). I believe the real question here is: Would a socialized healthcare system be worth a considerably more socialistic America? No way, in my opinion. However, I have decent healthcare; but that doesn’t mean that a person (not you Mo, just generally) should discredit my viewpoint. Look through history to the countries and city-states that implemented a socialistic society. They -ultimately- failed. Ultimately is emphasized because it did work a while, until moral corruption or personal greed (the reason our economy is destroyed) took over the system.
Am I saying America will fall because of gradual steps toward a socialistic society? No. However, given enough time, I guarantee that it will be the ruination of America when someone or some group (notice a non-partisan stance in that comment) tries to take over a system vital to America’s future. It’s a bold statement, but not a radical or offensive one. I would die for America…until she becomes mostly socialistic, in which case I won’t even be a citizen anymore. The healthcare bill alone (even when added to the banking and automotive industry takeovers) is not going to budge me from American allegiance, but if she continues on this path, well…I’ve already made that point.
Urban legend your Poll: Does it seem plausible to you that this health care plan would push people to undergo euthanasia?
Isn’t this a bit disingenuous??
Shouldn’t you be asking if they think end of life planning would include a *option* for euthanasia?
After all most people here have been claiming the gov’t would *never* give this as a option.
….yeah right.
See pages 284-288, SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS:
(ii) EXCLUSION OF CERTAIN READMISSIONS.—For purposes of clause (i), with respect to a hospital, excess readmissions shall not include readmissions for an applicable condition for which there are fewer than a minimum number (as determined by the Secretary) of discharges for such applicable condition for the applicable period and such hospital.
and, under “Definitions”:
‘‘(A) APPLICABLE CONDITION.—The term ‘applicable condition’ means, subject to subparagraph (B), a condition or procedure selected by the Secretary . . .
and:
‘‘(E) READMISSION.—The term ‘readmission’ means, in the case of an individual who is discharged from an applicable hospital, the admission of the individual to the same or another applicable hospital within a time period specified by the Secretary from the date of such discharge.
and:
‘‘(6) LIMITATIONS ON REVIEW.—There shall be no administrative or judicial review under section 1869, section 1878, or otherwise of— . . .
‘‘(C) the measures of readmissions . . .
EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:
1. This section amends the Social Security Act
2. The government has the power to determine what constitutes an “applicable [medical] condition.”
3. The government has the power to determine who is allowed readmission into a hospital.
4. This determination will be made by statistics: when enough people have been discharged for the same condition, an individual may be readmitted.
5. This is government rationing, pure, simple, and straight up.
6. There can be no judicial review of decisions made here. The Secretary is above the courts.
7. The plan also allows the government to prohibit hospitals from expanding without federal permission: page 317-318.
The source of this evaluation and more information can be found here: http://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm
I don’t care what page 425 says, nor page whatever. My health and my health care a my business and not the government’s. They screw up everything they touch and I don’t want them touching me. I was born in a FREE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THAT’S WHERE I WANT TO BE!!! I want 2010 to come and change our government with a change I want to believe in, not this socialist/communist take over we are having right now. If things don’t change then, then we are doomed in 2012.
Bail outs, health care destruction, spy lists…what is happening?
Future America (and Mo) — Mo said:
I only bring up the point that our grandparent’s generation brought up the initial movement towards a more socialized culture. After the Great Depression and WWI, people were desperate for some kind of ’social insurance” to protect them from poverty and unemployment and something to care for and provide for the elderly. And the government proposed that it should be the government’s duty to do these things.
============================
You make a vaild point Mo — progressive movement did start when people were desperate for gov’t to “help” them. Since then, we have acquired all sorts of failing expensive gov’t programs and our tax burden has become great. There are now 35 million Americans on welfare. Fairness and equality legislation served as the catalyst for the housing debacle, and now with job losses and the devaluation of the dollar people are asking for even MORE handouts.
The rich moved out of states that soaked them, such as CA, NY, now these states gov’t’s face a loss in tax revenue. Guess who will eventually have to pay? The middle class.
Gov’t has proven for 100 years, they can’t run anything effectively. We need less gov’t RUN programs and more gov’t OVERSIGHT of private run solutions. Let the states come up with plans if this is what he people wish, but the *federal* gov’t has no business dictating (constitutionally speaking)HC to the 50 sovereign states.
End of life service clearly refers to hospice care and this bill seems to simply provide for a consultation; one that would allow patients to decide, were they to become permanently unconscious, whether life should be supported by a machine. The consultations are clearly intended to give people informed choices and an opportunity to write a living will. My mother made a similar living will when she was in hospice care due to cancer; she expressed the wish that she did not want to be kept alive by a machine. Why not allow people the option if that is their wish? It is clearly erroneous to assume this bill will push euthanasia on people in any way.
I feel that people in this country have become very selfish. Those with healthcare are all too willing to dismiss the suffering of those without coverage since they deem it not to be their problem. The short-sightedness of that viewpoint is astounding. When those with healthcare lose their jobs or suffer a serious medical problem that isn’t covered by their plan they end up begging for reform like the rest of those without coverage. We are not talking about poor or lazy people; everyone is negatively affected by this current system. Please don’t get dissuaded by rhetoric and if stick to the facts you will see the benefit of reform.
Jo wrote:
Pg 30 Sec 123 – Government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get…
Line 16-17 Exact wording: “Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits…”
Decided by a GOVERNMENT run committee/panel, who will decide the benefits of each level/package — they decide treatments and benefits by virtue of the three gov’t HC plans.
Based on your longer interpretation, we basically agree on what this page says. Where we disagree is that you say this amounts to “decides what treatments/benefits you get.” That is different from “decides which benefits fall into each level of coverage.” The latter in no sense tells people what coverage they can or can’t choose.
Jo wrote:
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – Health care rationed. You get limited “care” per year.
“(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits pack
age with respect to an individual (or family) for
a year does not exceed the applicable level spec
ified in subparagraph (B).
9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable
10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is
11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a
12 family.”
It is LIMITED CARE, they SAY it is LIMITED. BTW — “Rationing” by definition is limiting peoples care.
Jo, PLEASE read more carefully. (And, for that matter, please read what I said in my earlier posting, because you’re making me repeat all this.) These paragraphs do not limit CARE. They limit COST-SHARING. I.e., they limit how big of a share (co-pay) the insured has to pay for covered medical services.
Nearly everything you say is based on MISreading the actual text.
S.O.S S.O.S S.O.S
OBAMA TRY AND TAKE MY RIGHT AWAY!
THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON PROTESTERS.
Jo wrote:
Urban legend your Poll: Does it seem plausible to you that this health care plan would push people to undergo euthanasia?
Isn’t this a bit disingenuous??
Shouldn’t you be asking if they think end of life planning would include a *option* for euthanasia?
After all most people here have been claiming the gov’t would *never* give this as a option.
Not disingenuous. I based the poll on the very rumor we’re discussing, which claimed:
“On Page 425 of Obama’s health care bill, the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier. Yes… They are going to push SUICIDE to cut Medicare spending!!! And no, I am NOT KIDDING YOU! So those of you who voted for Obama have now put yourself and your own parents in dire straights… Congratulations!”
Actually, my impression is that the majority of folks posting here are fully against the bill, against the consultations provided for on page 425, and certainly against making euthanasia an advance care option (though there is no explicit mention of such in the actual bill).
Also, since (if I recall correctly) a consultation on advance care planning must comply with the laws or guidelines of the state in which it takes place, I assume it would be illegal to counsel patients on euthanasia except in states that have some form of “right to die” law — Oregon, maybe? Nowhere else I can think of.
It’s interesting that the poll — which is an online poll, hence by no means scientific or conclusive — splits close to 50-50 (if you include those who weakly agree/disagree) on the question of whether people believe the bill “pushes” euthanasia. It’s what I would have predicted based on the ideological divide in this country.
This one’s mainly to Jo, but also a few others:
One of your strongest arguments is (I’m paraphrasing) that even if the bill doesn’t say XYZ is mandated, required, limited, etc., in fact XYZ probably WILL end up being mandated, required, or limited because of a) economic contraints, and b) it’s in the nature of government to extend as much control over the populace as the law can be interpreted as allowing.
That’s a classic conservative/libertarian argument, and one with which many people would agree, except you muddy it up by misrepresenting what the text of the bill actually says.
I’ve got an idea – everyone that thinks that universal healthcare (not the current House Bill, but Universal Healthcare as a whole) is socialist and sucking the tit of the government… then let’s say screw it and start paying per use for police services, fire and rescue services. Because not allowing our police and fire departments to be privately owned and turning a profit is just as socialist!!
Oh, wait. You mean you wouldn’t want a for profit police department? Then why the hell are you against a universal health system? (assuming it was actually done properly – not House Bill 3200)
People should realize that death is inevitable! Everyone catches death at some point in their lives. A living will is a good thing to have in place because if you don’t put your wishes out there, your kids will HAVE to make the painful choice of pulling the plug or not! Just be smart and do a living will and quit acting like it is a crime to have one! People just need to chill out and flow with the new thoughtful, intelligent, and compassionate things happening in our country. I think the progess refreshing and beneficial!
Joe Kish wrote:
See pages 284-288, SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS:
Skipping down to…
EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:
1. This section amends the Social Security Act
AGREED.
2. The government has the power to determine what constitutes an “applicable [medical] condition.”
AGREED.
3. The government has the power to determine who is allowed readmission into a hospital.
I DISAGREE. As I read it, the language defines what a “readmission” is for purposes of determining whether a given hospital has an excessive readmission rate. The purpose is to create incentives for said hospitals to provide better care the first time around so fewer patients have to be readmitted for the same condition. I find no language allowing the government determine whether individual patients can or can’t be readmitted to a hospital.
4. This determination will be made by statistics: when enough people have been discharged for the same condition, an individual may be readmitted.
I DISAGREE. I don’t see where the text says any such thing. Again, as I read it, the determination to be made via statistics is whether a given hospital has an excessive readmission rate. It imposes no restrictions on patients themselves.
5. This is government rationing, pure, simple, and straight up.
I DISAGREE. It appears to me to be an effort to create incentives for hospitals to decrease waste by doing a better job of treating patients in the first place so they don’t have to keep coming back for treatment of the same condition.
I’m assuming everyones read all 1000 pages of this bill?
There’s other problems besides the government giving you the option to kill yourself.What about Care for illegal aliens? Sure it doesn’t say anything about them getting care, but
It also doesn’t say about them being prohibited abusing the system.
Also, if EVERYONE can get free care, who’s going to pay the bill? That’s 300million people getting free x-rays, MRIS catscans,heart surgery, and kidney transplants. Our governments over 10tril in the hole.
Our government is in such bad shape, that it it went to get private healthcare, they’d ask if it just wanted to end its life!
And they want to give us socialized/nationalized/universalhealthcare? Are you mental?
Pretty soon africa will have to feed us!
while we are in danger of loosing our freedoms in america, our Military are loosing their lives for Iraq and Afgans. so they might have freedom. Our fore-fathers must be rolling in their graves. God help America.
UL wrote: Where we disagree is that you say this amounts to “decides what treatments/benefits you get.” That is different from “decides which benefits fall into each level of coverage.” The latter in no sense tells people what coverage they can or can’t choose.
Jo: I never said they didn’t have a “plan” choice, I SAID the *government* chooses by virtue of the plan what coverage the individual receives. Hence – my first claim is accurate:
Pg 30 Sec 123 – Government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get…
Perhaps I should have added “by plan” at the end — nonetheless they decide the individual does not.
====================================
Jo wrote:
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – Health care rationed. You get limited “care” per year.
“(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits pack
age with respect to an individual (or family) for
a year does not exceed the applicable level spec
ified in subparagraph (B).
9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable
10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is
11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a
12 family.”
It is LIMITED CARE, they SAY it is LIMITED. BTW — “Rationing” by definition is limiting peoples care.
UL said: These paragraphs do not limit CARE. They limit COST-SHARING. I.e., they limit how big of a share (co-pay) the insured has to pay for covered medical services. Nearly everything you say is based on MISreading the actual text.
Jo: I disagree, I believe you may be the one misreading the text. Granted the bill is ambiguous so it is possible I’m wrong, however I don’t think I am – because, the very next paragraph says:
“(A) IN GENERAL.—The cost-sharing under the essential benefits package shall be designed to provide a level of coverage that is designed to provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to approximately 70 percent of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the reference ***benefits package described in subparagraph (B.”***
“***” are my emphasis — They call subparagraph B a *benefits package*, which again, in this case subparagraph B LIMITS coverage. (Rationing)
But for arguments sake, lets say your reading it correct and I’m not. Then according to you, the cost share for the individual is $5,000 and the family a $10,000 per year with a increase every year after.
So that wonderful “free” BHO health care, costs $5,000 upfront before ANY medical service is covered for a single person. Some great plan — for this you can afford to purchase private HC.
About the poll UL, I still say that the wording is disingenuious. Plausible means supeficiality by definition, it infers that the question is silly – but your going to ask it anyhow.
Undergo euthanasia sounds forced and calloused compared to assisted suicide.
Words mean something, I’m surprised it’s split considering the clear slant you yourself showed above by labeling the 425 issue “Text of hysterical rumor”.
Should be more people denying that gov’t would encourage assisted suicide, considering how superfluous you made this concern out to be. That alone IMHO is very telling that people are suspicious of gov’t on this issue.
Jo writes:
But for arguments sake, lets say your reading it correct and I’m not. Then according to you, the cost share for the individual is $5,000 and the family a $10,000 per year with a increase every year after.
Though there is plenty of abstruse legalese and ambiguity in this bill, this particular subsection is pretty darned clear — if one cares enough about accuracy to give it a fair and careful reading.
So that wonderful “free” BHO health care, costs $5,000 upfront before ANY medical service is covered for a single person. Some great plan — for this you can afford to purchase private HC.
Apparently I missed where BHO promised “free” health care. Thanks for letting us know!
Secondly, the $5,000/$10,0000 amounts are maximums for co-payments, not deductibles. I.e., for an individual, the most he/she would have to co-pay for services in a given year can’t exceed $5,000. It doesn’t say $5,000 up front before any service is covered.
Moreover, you conveniently ignored the opening paragraph of this subsection, which stipulates that families won’t incur any cost-sharing obligation at all for preventive services, including infant and child care.
UL:
Page 287 ‘‘(E) READMISSION.—The term ‘readmis15
sion’ means, in the case of an individual who is
16 discharged from an applicable hospital, the ad17
mission of the individual to the same or another
18 applicable hospital within a time period speci19
fied by the Secretary from the date of such dis20
charge. Insofar as the discharge relates to an
21 applicable condition for which there is an en22
dorsed measure described in subparagraph
23 (A)(ii)(I), such time period (such as 30 days)
24 shall be consistent with the time period speci25
fied for such measure.
=============
There are parts of this bill that refer to the hospitals reporting or re-admissions, but as you can see there is individual readmission policy as well.
the ’secretary’ will decide who is readmitted and who is not, by legislation in the final senate bill if it passes.
Jo writes:
There are parts of this bill that refer to the hospitals reporting or re-admissions, but as you can see there is individual readmission policy as well.
the ’secretary’ will decide who is readmitted and who is not, by legislation in the final senate bill if it passes.
Again, you’re not reading carefully enough.
The passage you quote defines “readmission” for purposes of laying out the program for incentivizing hospitals to improve the quality of their care. That definition is the only context in which the word “individual” is used.
The text does NOT say “the ’secretary’ will decide who is readmitted and who is not.”
Why do people feel that scaring people is the only way to get what they want? Oh wait the truth isn’t on there side so telling people that everyone who voted for Obama that they are killers is a good way to change minds. Isn’t telling a lie wrong?! Learned that in preschool!
Nothing that is worth while is Free!
Again to Jo,
Continuing on the point above, I see that the sentence that most concerns you is this:
“Insofar as the discharge relates to an applicable condition for which there is an endorsed measure described in subparagraph (A)(ii)(I), such time period (such as 30 days) shall be consistent with the time period specified for such measure.”
This still falls under the definition of “readmission.”
I read it as meaning: For an admission to be counted as a “readmission” (for purposes of measuring hospital quality), that admission must be for an applicable medical condition and must have occurred within a specified time period after the original discharge.
The upshot is this:
You say this language lays out a legal prohibition on who can and who can’t be readmitted to a hospital, and within what time period.
I take this language to be defining what counts as a readmission — i.e., what medical conditions and time periods are applicable — in compiling data to assess whether hospitals are readmitting patients too frequently in cases where better care could have prevented it.
Which interpretation is more true to the text?
I think this bill just shows how much the Government is in our business and trying so hard to get more involved in it. I agree people need health care but at some point you have to pick yourself up and stop counting on the rest of the people in the country to hold your hand. I understand times are hard but this is nothing new (just a little harder now). The feds getting involved in the health care of others is nothing new, they do provide for congress, senate, and the military. I must say I have experienced the healthcare for the military and it is quite sad and lacking in trained caregivers. And for all of you who will claim I am just another jesus freak, you would be very mistaken.
Let’s be very clear.
We have 3 branches of government.
1. Judicial
2. Legislative
3. Executive
The Health Care Reform Bill H.R. 3200 is an House of Representative Bill. It is not an Executive Order, nor a Treaty, nor a Budget.
The President, from his position can ask, maybe demand, maybe suggest a Reform Bill but he can not nor does he create a HR Bill.
Before I launch into how disgraceful this writer is for taking things out of content and making a argument around passages not fully explained, we should back back and really think about what this country is doing.
We need affordable Health care. Not because it’s the right thing to do, not because 40 -45 millions of Americans are un-insured, we need it because it really and honestly zapped our competitiveness in this Global Economy.
We really should talk about what your employer and what you pay for Health Care. I really have to tell you. I really hate socialize Medicine, but as a true capitalist.. I love money. We need to really examine what the United States will do if the people who oppose this bill.
Before jump on a stupid bandwagon think intelligently about what we will do as a country.
Remember someone always pays..
If you have a better suggestion regarding Health Care.. tell the President, don’t be an idiot like this writer and stand behind words and never suggest an alternative. Someone has to do something
Oh and remember the Civics Lesson.
Richard Dennis
World Photographs 360°
it says the secretary will decide if the time is suitable for re admission.
This health care bill is extremely confusing! All Americans including congressmen and senators don’t really understand this health care bill. Because of the confusion, Americans are arguing. Everyone including elected officials “must” be governed by the same health care bill-no acceptations. If not, revise the health care bill until it accommodates All Americans elected or not!
There are not 40 to 45 million people without healthcare! Many whom don’t have it don’t want it. This being a lot of the younger generation who think they are invincible. All the rest WHO I DON’T BELIEVE are all US citizens can go to any emergency room in this country and get treatment if they need it, that is the federal law of this country. “No person shall be denied medical treatment for lack of financial ability”.
In the early beginnings of our country there was a town called Jamestown.
About half the people just wanted to search for gold rather than plant crops to make it through the cold winter ahead.
They decided if you didn’t work then you couldn’t eat. I say we should return to that philosophy. Today we have too many people wanting gold, and then want to mooch food without earning their right to the table by working for it.It was simple then and we should return to its wisdom. I say Welcome to Jamestown. If you want benefits then work and pay for it! Funny how when you are hungry it makes you more willing to want to earn your own way. For those who say we should provide for all these people who won’t or don’t want to work should open up their home to about 50 freeloaders. Its always so easy to say we should do this or that as long as they don’t pay personally for them. How dare you say anything about Christians who earn and pay their own way. Besides more Christians help the down and outers more than anybody. Sounds like a return to Jamestown is what we need
I remember civics, Do you remember History? Because those who don’t are doomed to repeat it…..Just ask our neighbors across the big pond.
To Mr. Dennis @ 308:
Sir, you write “Before jump on a stupid bandwagon think intelligently about what we will do as a country.”
I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is what people SHOULD do, but the fact of the matter is that one thing our countrymen do very well is, indeed, jumping on the “Stupid Bandwagon.” As much as I wish it weren’t so, independent thought (and the drive to do the research that allows it) isn’t such a common virtue amongst our fellow Americans as it once was. The sad fact is that the “Rational Bandwagon” isn’t nearly as good at attracting potential passengers.
I know I sound incredibly misanthropic, but (alas) I really don’t think I’m wrong here…
James hit the nail on the head….. I might add the perhaps we should put the freeloaders on the next Mayflower back to England though.
I may get torched for writing by the board however, this is a “Free Country” the last time I checked and I am going to utilize that “God Given Right”. After recently serving in the military for over 21 years and protecting our country from all enemies foreign and domestic, I finally get a chance to weigh in on some of the subjects that have been bothering me for years.
Healthcare reform has been a thorn in the sides of American’s for years (and yes before anyone decides to point a finger at me, I do have healthcare for the rest of my life. My family also shares in that plan to a point. My children have care up to the age of 24 as long as they are in college and my wife will receive the same treatment as I do) without much progress. Why you ask? Money! It is always about money. I pose this question. Why attempt to overhaul the medical system at a time when our economy is basically in the worst shape since the great depression? Wouldn’t you think more time and energy should be focused on getting people back to work and bringing down our national debt? Then start working on programs such as healthcare to enhance quality of life.
You need to get the buy-in from the people who elected you (not saying that I voted for him) in order for change to be successful. In other words, change will be fought if everyone does not fully understand the changes that are being made around them. It would make to much sense for the elected officials in Washington to attempt to explain this bill to the American Tax Payer and Voter. After all, isn’t this going to affect the entire American family?
I have always thought of it to be a great honor to serve this great country for 21 years on active duty. I was forced to retire due to a medical issue that I sustained while doing my job. I would still be serving our great nation today if I had not been injured. My point is, I stood up and fought for what I believed in then and I am doing that now. In my opinion, this bill is flawed and needs to be looked at from every angle before being signed into law. I have parents who took great care of me when I was growing up and I will ensure they to are taken care of in their prime (even though they to have prepared for their elderly years). I too will become elderly one day and am preparing for that day also as all of us should but as a good military man should do, I am always looking out for you to.
Chris writes:
“it says the secretary will decide if the time is suitable for re admission.”
With all due respect, no, it says the secretary will specify what time period has to elapse between someone’s discharge from a hospital and subsequent admission to the same or another hospital for treatment of the same condition for it to count as a “readmission.”
Page 287: “(E) READMISSION.—The term ‘readmission’ means, in the case of an individual who is discharged from an applicable hospital, the admission of the individual to the same or another applicable hospital within a time period specified by the Secretary from the date of such discharge. Insofar as the discharge relates to an applicable condition for which there is an endorsed measure described in subparagraph (A)(ii)(I), such time period (such as 30 days) shall be consistent with the time period specified for such measure.
To James @ 342:
This issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion. Period. And so bringing up the subject does nothing but hamper legitimate discourse by inviting religious zealotry (and bigotry) from both sides of that coin. Not good.
Please, leave religion out of this discussion.
urbanlegends..
You are correct, thanks for the correction.
Bev writes:
“This health care bill is extremely confusing!”
Amen. I know we have too many laws already, but how about one that just states that all Congressional bills must be written in plain language, or at the very least a plain-language translation acceptable to both parties must be provided.
Much of the confusion and anger surrounding this issue is due to our inability to simply agree on what the words mean. Think about that.
Why would the government have any interest in the end of my life if they are not planning to save money, control me in some way, etc.? The end of my life is not the business of the government. Anyone who thinks they will get to keep their private insurance is in Wonderland with Alice.
Military Man wrote:
“My point is, I stood up and fought for what I believed in then and I am doing that now. In my opinion, this bill is flawed and needs to be looked at from every angle before being signed into law.”
Actually, I think very few people here would disagree with you on that.
One fact that gets lost in the shuffle is that the bill we’re discussing is only one of several introduced in the House and Senate (if I recall correctly, there are 5 versions all told). Before any health care reform bill can be passed all these versions have to be revised, reconciled, and hammered into a single piece of legislation.
Whatever your views, let your Congressional representatives know what you think.
“Government doesn’t belong in health care”?!
The Government STARTED PRIVATIZED HEALTH CARE! Nixon and Kaiser.
Check your conscience at the door consumers! So long as it’s not your mother being denied treatment for cancer… turn a blind eye. Turn a blind eye.
Page one of the bill tells us it is about cost reduction. The part you bring up (pg 425-430) explains that a government agent will discuss with you the end of life issues associated with Nutrition, hydration and antibiotics.
You want me to believe that a good little minded government bureaucrat will not be incentivized to reduce costs – in a system that will be way too costly in the first place….sorry – it happens in every country where there is socialized medicine used – but you say – not here – no way – our bureaucrats would never do something like that.
I trust insurance companies far more than bureaucrats – any day…..
Sorry fella – this is way too far out for me to buy into. Healthcare needs to be a choice between me and my doctor and not have government bureaucrats messing with it more than they arlread do….that is the real problem but you do not want to address that.
Knuckles writes:
“Page one of the bill tells us it is about cost reduction. The part you bring up (pg 425-430) explains that a government agent will discuss with you the end of life issues associated with Nutrition, hydration and antibiotics.”
Knuckles, please show us in the actual text of the bill where it says a “government agent” will discuss end-of-life issues with you.
Knuckles writes:
“Sorry fella – this is way too far out for me to buy into. Healthcare needs to be a choice between me and my doctor and not have government bureaucrats messing with it more than they arlread do….that is the real problem but you do not want to address that.”
No, Knuckles, it seems you do not want to address what this section of the bill actually says. It says that if you are on Medicare and choose to discuss end-of-life care options with a doctor — a doctor you choose — that doctor will be reimbursed.
This is not a Healthcare program. The authors should be ashamed. If I need to hire an attorney to decode this thing, then it is a joke. Why are we wasting money to have the Federal government author something like this. The should be ashamed of themselves.
After many years of selling Healthcare Insuurnace the Federal government should be a shamed of this. They really don’t know how to write a Bill or probably anthing else.
The time has come to only modify existing insurance program and adjust premiums if necessary. Tha is all our country needs.
Interesting. What’s happened to the last 10-15 comments, including mine where I said this was a leftist site, and said that I’ve been completing Advanced Directives as a social worker for the past 25 years and am worried about the “training” and “goals” that providers must receive as set by “The Secretary” when all these years this FREE service has been provided without training? And, that everyone that’s been in a hospital has been given this opportunity, so why do we need a government sponsored program to “train” providers to reach “goals” set by The Secretary, unless someone is messing around with this service and need to “train” people to accept the NEW way of looking at Advanced Directives?
Lizzie at 6:51 said: Why would the government have any interest in the end of my life if they are not planning to save money, control me in some way, etc.?
————-
Exactly. Lizzie has it correct, the mere mention of government controlled HC by way of secretaries, and end of life counselors (among 29+ Czars, union thugs to silence dissent etc…)ought to send shivers up everyone’s spine. This is akin to what Hitler did *for* the benefit of his people, and we saw how that turned out. The people were enslaved and dominated. Good people died because of politics, color and faith.
Jo wrote:
“Lizzie has it correct, the mere mention of government controlled HC by way of secretaries, and end of life counselors (among 29+ Czars, union thugs to silence dissent etc…) ought to send shivers up everyone’s spine. This is akin to what Hitler did *for* the benefit of his people, and we saw how that turned out.”
Ugh. Am I the only one who feels like someone just puked all over the room?
Eve wrote:
“Interesting. What’s happened to the last 10-15 comments, including mine where I said this was a leftist site…”
Scroll up to find your postings. Still there.
UL: If we ignore history we are doomed to repeat it. Why do you think so many Americans are upset with gov’t these days?
We watch in horror as our gov’t spends our tax dollars to bail out private industry, buy private industry, pass cap and trade (despite BO’s own admission it will raise the average Americans electric bill), FORCE a HC plan most people are wary about and then gov’t tells us if we speak out or question any of these unconstitutional acts of power grabbing, that we are part of a “Un-American mob”. Meanwhile, BO goes on a USA world apology tour. Disgraceful and embarrassing to any educated American who, realizes that while we’ve made (Monday morning quarterback) mistakes – we have done far, FAR more good in the world. People come in droves to the US because of our success and freedom.
Yet 50% of Americans have apparently forgotten, or have not learned in history, of what it is like to NOT be American.
Our founders would abhor the HC legislation, cap and trade, buying/bailing out of private industry and world apologies.
Perhaps next time voters, go to vote they ought to ask “What would TJ do? (that would be Thomas Jefferson for the BO voters.)He sure wouldn’t be for aforementioned massive government. Our founders would no longer recognize this nation of gov’t dependent moochers and power hungry politicians.
This is not the nation they planned.
A bit of Education on AMERICAN government:
“The house of representatives … can make no law which will not have its full operation on themselves and their friends, as well as the great mass of society. This has always been deemed one of the strongest bonds by which human policy can connect the rulers and the people together. It creates between them that communion of interest, and sympathy of sentiments, of which few governments have furnished examples; but without which every government degenerates into tyranny.” –Federalist No. 57, February 19, 1788
BTW, to clarify I’m not calling anyone “person” Hitler or Stalin, just pointing out the current political tactics used are eerily similar. It would do Americans good to review that part of history and how the German people effectively voted in their own demise. The tyrants of that time (through propaganda) played on peoples fear, systematically removed their civil rights. For the “good” of the people.
I’ve posted videos on YouTube explaining how people like John McCain, who has had government health insurance for 73 years, fights against the little guy from getting a little health insurance coverage.
On YouTube search for John McCain Health Insurance Hypocrite.
Obama said “you just get into some very difficult moral issues” when considering whether “to give my grandmother, or everybody else’s aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they’re terminally ill.
“That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,” he said in the April 14 interview. “The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc
– Obama wondering out loud if the cost of health care can be cut by LIMITED (rationed) coverage for terminally ill who need quality of life operations.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Ma3lst0rm
Coming to a hospital near you.
Wow…I read this section of the Bill and I got a totally different impression from writer. To me, it says that the conference is to have an informative discussion about how I want proceed with my healthcare instead of putting the responsibility into the doctor’s hands.
Now my question is: IF you have a doctor that wants to discuss how you should end your life…then it’s time to get another doctor. I just had my yearly check-up and my doctor told me that at my age (47) I needed to start adding calcium to my diet. That’s the kind of consultation that I get with MY doctor. The Bible says at Titus 1:15 that “to the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.” Let those who have ears, HEAR!!!
all these anti reformers sound ignorant and bitter. but it doesn’t really matter, the bill will eventually get passed and we’ll all be better off for it, whether you choose to abmit it or not. so keep spreading your lies and filling your hearts with hate until it creates a cancer in your body that we’ll eventually have to fix with “obamascare”.
‘Founding Fathers’ ‘We the People, etc and don’t we still have the Electoral College, which was begun by some of our Founding Fathers because they didn’t trust ‘the People’ to know what they were doing when they voted. And, guess what, it’s still there. And, by the way, God is a delusion.
Insurance companies are making decisions about people’s health care right now – whether they can have a certain treatment or test. Of course you can have whatever you want if you can pay for it. So the scare that is being spread is really not much different than the statis quo, except more people will be in the mix. This cry for national healthcare came from the people, they are just being given what they have been asking for. Perhaps if not for the greed that has driven costs up, this would not be an issue. You folks that don’t like it – keep what you have.
Sensible writes
“All these anti reformers sound ignorant and bitter but it doesn’t really matter, the bill will eventually get passed and we’ll all be better off for it, whether you choose to abmit it or not. so keep spreading your lies and filling your hearts with hate until it creates a cancer in your body that we’ll eventually have to fix with “obamascare”.
You are mostly correct. The bill will mostly pass and healthcare as America knows it today will “Change” forever. Forums like the internet, allow so-called anti-reformers the chance to utilize this type of medium to foster change, speak their minds, ask questions, and to help others through the process of change. I do believe that a recently elected president revolutionized the use of this type of forum to get to his current post. The individuals that you speak of in your paragraph may be concerned for their future healthcare needs, do not fully understand the bill, or maybe just want to use their Freedom of Speech Rights. Reporters do this type of work all the time. Are they bitter? Are they ignorant? No, because the newspaper they work for is paying them to uncover the truth about the underlying issues. We as American’s are doing that for ourselves on this forum for FREE!
Their is a reason that “transparency” and a vote by individual voters has not happened, and that is, anyone who thinks that the bill is not going to impact negatively on our health has their head in the sand. Of course, elders, I being one, could be misled into thinking premature life ending would be “best for the state.” And also the infirm, the handicapped, etc. So why not leave us and our children’s {who have no say in any of this} medical faith to the likes of government run plan that has been “so successful” in running other businesses, as Amtrak, Bank and Wall Street Enforcement, and the Post Office, the last of which Obama, just indicated was a failure compared to private run companies. I lived in England when my mother-in-law requied a gall bladder operation under the Socialized Health Plan, and was told “in my presence”, that there were many others younger than her 61 years that were “required to be considered before her.” After waiting almost two painful years, she resorted to a very expensive private surgeon operation. The term “legalized euthanasia,” came into play because it was a means to force old but healthy persons to early death. Much different than the Oxford English Dictionary definition of euthanasia as “the painless killing of a patient who has an incurable disease or who is an irreversible coma. I have no doubts that this present Administration would define and defend the “end of life” consideration for euthanasia because we are “all terminal once we are born.” It is also interesting that President Obama’s Chief of Staff, Ron Emmanuel, has medical docter brother who has often advocated that medical resourses should not be “wasted” on the old or infirm,”( Down’s syndrome, handicapped persons- blind, deaf, mentally challenged, etc.. Additionally, that brother allegedly is playing a role as one of the other medical people in putting this Bill together, and in the climate indicated ,that he could be the Czar in charge of Panel “end of life” decisionmaking . Anyone who has any doubts about the generations to come lifetime impact of this Bill need only to read the disputed words in the Bill and see if something doesn’t raise the hackles on our backs. Of course we all know that the politicians writing this very bad Bill are always honest, always never have a profit motive, and always, never ever insult our intelligence! If ever there was atime to be heard– that time is now–for our sake, and those who follow us– no matter how SOME would make us think we do not matter. Thanks for the voice!
Jo: Obama said “you just get into some very difficult moral issues” when considering whether “to give my grandmother, or everybody else’s aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they’re terminally ill.
“That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,” he said in the April 14 interview. “The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc
– Obama wondering out loud if the cost of health care can be cut by LIMITED (rationed) coverage for terminally ill who need quality of life operations.
Mo: Truer words have not been spoken by Obama. There is an ethical dilemma surrounding whether to provide surgeries like hip-replacements to people who may not live another month.
Obama is completely correct in stating that our healthcare expenditures are drastically high for patients in their last few months of life.
As a medical student, I spend a lot of class time discussing these kinds of ethical dilemmas with classmates and professors. And each and every time, we never come to a conclusion. Because yes – it is easy to say – “No don’t give that surgery to this lady. She’s going to die in a week.” What makes it more difficult is when that lady is your grandmother. Our professors don’t know the answers to these ethical dilemmas (and some have been practicing medicine for decades).
In a 2002 research paper by John Luce, he aims to address whether health care costs can be reduced by reducing the care that terminally ill patients people receive at the end of life.
His first paragraph highlights the economic realities of end of life care.
“Total health care costs in the United States (U.S.) reached $989 billion in 1995 and now exceed $1 trillion, 14% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (1). Of this total, a disproportionate share is attributable to the care of elderly patients shortly before their deaths. According to Lubitz and Prihoda (2) and Lubitz and Riley (3), 6% of Medicare recipients 65 yr of age and older who died in 1978 and 1988 accounted for 28% of all costs of the Medicare program. In the same two years, 77% of the Medicare decedents’ expenditures occurred in the last year of life, 52% of them in the last 2 mo, and 40% in the last month. Inpatient expenses accounted for over 70% of the decedents’ total costs.”
The problem with trying to solve this issue is not whether we can pay for these quality of life functions or whether we should do them. Rather, the main obstacle is how does one identify a terminally ill patients. I currently work with the trauma surgery team. We have had patients who have survived with minimal loss of function even after suffering a bullet wound to the head. And we also know of cases where someone has died from a routine appendectomy.
From an economic stand point, yes – Obama is correct. It does not make any sense to pay for a hip replacement surgery for a ventilator dependent terminally ill patient. But from a scientific stand point, even Dr. Luce admits that there is little evidence to support that terminally ill patients can be readily identified.
And that is where the ethical dilemma comes in. Do we stop ICU care for Mom (and provide her with palliative care) because she has a terminal illness and the chances of her recovering from this are slim to none? Or do we go on a full court press and throw everything in our arsenal at her to try and save her?
What if she dies tomorrow? Or next year? No one can really know.
So Jo, Obama is right in bringing this ethical dilemma to our attention. It is something as a country we must come to terms with. There is no getting around it.
PS: If anyone wants to read the paper, the link is below:
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/165/6/750
Apologies for any grammatical errors. Didn’t have time to proof read.
Oh my God, another flaming Liberal Commie — oops, I mean Republican senator named Johnny Isakson — claims the advance care planning consultations provided for in the House health care reform bill are completely voluntary and “for an individual to be able to clearly delineate what they want done in various sets of circumstances at the end of their life.”
Quotes from Washington Post interview:
How did this become a question of euthanasia?
I have no idea. I understand — and you have to check this out — I just had a phone call where someone said Sarah Palin’s web site had talked about the House bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized. How someone could take an end of life directive or a living will as that is nuts. You’re putting the authority in the individual rather than the government. I don’t know how that got so mixed up.
You’re saying that this is not a question of government. It’s for individuals.
It empowers you to be able to make decisions at a difficult time rather than having the government making them for you.
The policy here as I understand it is that Medicare would cover a counseling session with your doctor on end-of-life options.
Correct. And it’s a voluntary deal.
Trust those Commie Republicans to lie through their teeth.
Full interview: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_the_government_going_to_eut.html
Virginia said:This cry for national healthcare came from the people.
The cry came from Obama, but since you insist on listening to “the cry from the people” then we MUST kill this bill, latest Rasmussen poll says:
42% favor the plan
53% are opposed
Note about founding fathers and the electoral college: It was put in place by our founders to eliminate pure democracy which is mob rule. (A kin to two wolves and a sheep deciding on what’s for dinner.)
For example: There are MILLIONS of people crammed into metropolitan cities whereas, farmers are few but spread out over large parcels of land. Now would you want city people (who know nothing about farming), to make farming decisions on your food supply by pure democratic vote? Of course not, this is one of the many reasons we have the electoral college. Our form of government is a REPUBLIC not a pure democracy, precisely because of situations like this.
In a REPUBLIC we vote for local people (representatives) to speak for us.
Don’t be so quick to dismiss/disrespect our founders, they were very wise men. They created this country and we have had 233 years of growth and wealth. With periodic exceptions of course, when too many socialist cogs are placed in the capitalist wheel. As in all things, we need a balance.
I love how the radical Republicans start throwing out the Hitler references when they can’t scare others with their ridiculous interpretations of the wording of the potential HC bill, but then they back off and say they didn’t mean that any one person was being referred to as Hitler. Really? Why bring up Hitler by name then if you aren’t trying to say someone was acting like him?
And the more ridiculous comments about “Czars”. No where in government is a title of a position with the word Czar in it. That term was made up by the press to reference a position of power, such as the secretaries of Health, Homeland Security, etc. Those positions are only Secretaries, reporting to the President. There are no Czars in American Government, so get over that little hysterical rumour.
Why do you people have to make up blatant lies about the health bill. You never complained about how the ins. companies are ripping you off? You think think they are on the up and up with their premiums? Something needs to be done. Our health system costs are astronomical now. If it was a white republican you people would be kissing ass. Why don’t you read the bill, and stop listening to the docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf -link lobyists.
Yikes! The AARP supports Section 1233 and advance care planning consultations! Guess they’re a bunch of Constitution-hating, Hitler-loving Nazis who want their elderly members to be forced to discuss euthanasia with government bureaucrats!
AARP Endorsement
“We’ve been hearing concerns from our members that this is a step toward government-mandated euthanasia,” says Jim Dau, a spokesman for the AARP, the advocacy group for people past age 50, which supports health-care reform to help older Americans. “These are baseless scare tactics put out by those who seek to derail health-care reform. The bill would help people find resources to help themselves and their doctors make important decisions about the end of their lives.”
According to Dau, what’s been lost in the small-scale hysteria is that these services are 100% optional: Medicare subscribers can ask for help with living wills if they like, but no end-of-life arrangement will ever be mandated or imposed upon them by doctors or government. “The only new thing about the bill is that Medicare will pay for end-of-life counseling every five years,” Dau says. “If you decide to take one of these consultations, you don’t have to sign any document before you leave—no advance directives, no living will. These are, as they should be, completely optional.”
Source: Business Week
From a news article regarding comments from one of the authors of the bill, Rep. Earl Blumenauer:
In a widely quoted Facebook posting, former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin charged that federal bureaucrats would play God, ruling on whether ailing seniors or children with Down syndrome – such as Palin’s son Trig – are worthy of health care. Palin called the proposal “downright evil.”
Many news organizations – including The Associated Press – debunked Palin’s claim. The provision that caused the uproar would authorize Medicare to pay doctors for voluntary counseling about end-of-life care.
But Blumenauer says he is astounded that Palin and other critics have not tempered their bleak descriptions of the health care bill.
“It’s deliberate at this point,” Blumenauer said of Palin’s failure to correct her Aug. 7 Facebook posting. “If she wasn’t deliberately lying at the beginning, she is deliberately allowing a terrible falsehood to be spread with her name.”
Blumenauer said the measure he supports would merely allow Medicare to pay doctors for voluntary counseling sessions that address end-of-life issues. Topics include living wills, designating a close relative or a trusted friend as a health care proxy and information about pain medications for chronic discomfort.
The measure would block funds for counseling that presents suicide or assisted suicide as an option, Blumenauer said, calling references to death panels or euthanasia “mind-numbing.”
“It’s a blatant lie, and everybody who has checked it agrees,” he said.
Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski said this week that Palin and other critics were not helping the GOP by throwing out false claims.
“Quite honestly, I’m so offended at that terminology, because it absolutely isn’t” in the bill, Murkowski said. “There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill.”
Georgia Sen. Johnny Isakson, a Republican who co-sponsored a similar measure in the Senate, said it was “nuts” to claim the bill encourages euthanasia.
“You’re putting the authority in the individual rather than the government,” Isakson said. “I don’t know how that got so mixed up.”
Blumenauer said the controversy was helping Democrats in a “perverse way.”
By continuing to spread a widely refuted claim, Republican critics are undercutting their own credibility, he said. The controversy has drawn more attention to the original proposal, which passed largely unnoticed when a health overhaul was approved by three House committees.
“This has taken on an outsized significance and so more people are paying attention to it than ever before,” Blumenauer said. “I think you will see more people use this to say, ‘What will happen to me if I am in an accident? Here’s what I want.’ More people are going to take matters into their own hands.”
If the author of the bill says it doesn’t say the bill will require the government to kill you or talk to you about killing yourself (as the hysterical rumour mongers want you to believe), then why do you think you know more about the bill than him? He says it very plainly.
Some of you will still try to say that even though he says it doesn’t say it, the bill still could say that or be interpreted that way. Wrong.
If it comes out later that the bill could be interpreted that way, the Supreme Court would shoot down the bill as the intent wasn’t to say that (The author is on record as saying it wasn’t meant to be mandatory).
What happened to this country? THIS IS THE U.S.A. HOLY CRAP. You people who believe these lies are ignorant. And I mean ignorant in that you listen to people telling these lies instead of finding out for yourselves. And to say the president is lying? That is ludicrous. Remember “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED”? WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION? Who really are the liars. Don’t be a sheep. Educate yourself.
Jeez Louise! Noted Nazi Commie-loving liberal — sorry, did it again; I mean Republican — Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski says the health care bill contains no provisions for “death panels.” Lying fascist wants to push assisted suicide on America’s senior citizens!
U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski on Tuesday told an Anchorage crowd that critics of health care reform, the summer’s hottest political topic, aren’t helping the debate by throwing out highly charged assertions not based in fact.
“It does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there’s these end-of-life provisions, these death panels,” Murkowski, a Republican, said. “Quite honestly, I’m so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn’t (in the bill). There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill.”
Source: Alaska Daily News
Oh those republican commies you just can’t count on them to keep the same story twice… Or maybe it was the WP blogger who lied? Who knows!
But clearly, Co-sponsering 2007 medicaid end of life act, would have nothing to do with the language in the House bill.
Just this month another report said:
Isakson vehemently opposes the House and Senate health care bills and he played no role in drafting language added to the House bill by House Democrats calling for the government to incentivize doctors by offering them money to conduct “end-of-life counseling” with Medicare patients every five years. Isakson also strongly opposed the House bill language calling for doctors to follow a government-mandated list of topics to discuss with patients during the counseling sessions.
http://www.peachpundit.com/2009/08/11/isakson-blasts-obama-and-us-house-for-misleading-public-misrepresenting-his-association-with-health-care-bill/
—————-
For the record, I don’t believe any politicians word (either party) or bloggers, or any ONE source. I listen to what they consistently say. Example — Obama has a clear record of deceit and lies on this issue as I have previously posted.
To the paralegal who states “shall” means mandatory, you are correct, however the “shall” referenced on this page [ctrl+F to find] refers to what “shall” be included in the DISCUSSION with your medical provider. Nowhere does “shall” reference a mandate for consultation. Try reading more closely (or reading period) next time…and you might look into finding a different line of work.
Rational Thinker said:
Really? Why bring up Hitler by name then if you aren’t trying to say someone was acting like him?
I presume this is a reference to me.
I reiterate — our GOVERNMENT (all of them — both parties) have been enacting policies that are reminiscent of Hitler. Bush with terrorism fear tactics, now Obama with power grabs. The party doesn’t matter they BOTH act like the third Reich at times.
Got it now?
As for Czars — all POTUS have Czars most 3 or 4 as I recall, this particular POTUS has 28+ and counting. (Call them what you will – they are people placed to work AROUND congress. This should be a concern for all fair minded Americans.)
1. Herb Allison-TARP Czar
2. Alan Bersin-Border Czar
3. Dennis Blair-Intelligence Czar
4. John Brennan-Terrorism Czar
5. Carol Browner-Energy Czar
6. Adolfo Carrion, Jr-Urban Affairs Czar
7. Ashton Carter-Weapons Czar
8. Aneesh Chopra-Technology Czar
9. Jeffrey Crowley-AIDS Czar
10. Cameron Davis-Great Lakes Czar
11. Nancy-Ann DeParle-Health Czar
12. Earl Devaney-Stimulus Accountability Czar
13. Joshua DuBois-Faith-based Czar
14. Kenneth Feinberg-Pay Czar
15. Danny Fried-Guantanamo Closure Czar
16. J. Scott Gration-Sudan Czar
17. Richard Holbrooke-Afghanistan Czar
18. John Holdren-Science Czar
19. Van Jones Green-Jobs Czar
20. Gil Kerlikowske-Drug Czar
21. Vivek Kundra-Information Czar
22. George Mitchell-Mideast Peace Czar
23. Ed Montgomery-Car Czar
24. Dennis Ross-Mideast Policy Czar
25. Gary Samore-WMD Czar
26. Todd Stern-Climate Czar
27. Cass Sunstein-Regulatory Czar
28. Paul Volcker-Economic Czar
Somebody said they never trust just one source for their information. Me neither. For example, I would never rely on the Communists at FactCheck.org alone for information on Section 1233 of the health care bill:
Nor would I rely solely on the word of the fascist Nazis at PolitiFact.com:
And how ’bout that Hitler-loving Associated Press!!! I’d never rely on their word alone:
perhaps this health care reform bill is not the best way to overhaul the health care system. but i believe something must be done. here are some facts: 46 million people in this country are without health insurance. 37 million of them are employed. of those 37 million, over 40% have the option of participating in employer subsidized health care plans and still can’t afford the premiums. health care costs are estimated to double in the next ten years, but i think we all know the average income will not anywhere near to doubling. the end result will be even more people without insurance.
you can say all you want that the government should not be in the business of health care, but the fact of the matter is they already are and have been for a long time. ever heard of medicaid and medicare? the new health care reform bill is no more socialism than either of those programs. of course, i’m sure those of you shouting the loudest think we should get rid of those too. after all, if we take away coverage for the old, the poor and the minorities, maybe they’ll all suffer and die and we’ll be rid of them for good.
if you want to know what real socialist health care is like, do some research on the scandivanian countries (norway, sweden, denmark and finland). they have both socialized health care and education. they also have the highest per capita incomes in the world, the lowest crime rates, the highest life expectancies, and pretty much the best standards of living in the world. so yeah, so called socialized health care is evil. obviously.
oh, and if you have private insurance now, please don’t tell me that you actually believe that ultimately your health care decisions aren’t made by bureaucrats. who do you think runs HMOs? and they’re bureaucrats that care a heck of a lot more about their bottom line than they do about your kids or your grandma.
Just wondering if you know who owns some of these cited sources?? Ever wonder why so many of them repeat essentially the same rhetoric??
Call me all the names you want, for but I’ve looked into some of these.
Let’s see Factcheck is run by the Annenburg foundation… where have I heard that name before?? Hummmm. Oh that’s right Obamas terrorist friend Bill Ayers was a “key founder” of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.
In 1995 Obama was appointed Board Chairman and President of the Annenberg Chicago Challenge, a “branch of the Annenberg Foundation”.
But you go on and TRUST factcheck because of course the fact they have ties to BO, wouldn’t be a CONFLICT of interest now would it?
Or how about moveon.orgs creation by Hillary and funding by George Soros??
And Lord knows the metropolitan news sources like the AP, CNN, NY Times, Washington Post, etc… are so slanted it’s not funny. To seriously say otherwise, is like saying Fox News, Michele Maulkin, and Rush Limbaugh don’t lean right!
My gosh the white house gives them daily talking points! Just flip the channel they are all parroting like good little sheeple.
As for the content of your sources, I personally have never said euthanasia would be “government mandated’ so I don’t know where you get this. i simply have said that it will be mandatory by gov’t, for your doc to have a end of life discussion with you, which it is by the word shall.
Further, I believe it is possible in that this discussion could include options to end ones life voluntarily. The bill neither confirms or denys this possibility.
Also, Obama himself says that perhaps a pill would be best instead of an end life operation.
He said it yet another time, and used his grandmothers hip replacement as example. That a moral decision should be made for terminally ill people. Perhaps they should possibly take a pill and not receive quality of life hip replacement, since they cost too much and 80% of HC cost goes to the elderly.
Jo, you are the unfortunate example of too much mouth, not enough brain. Please stop posting your assumptions, speculations, and confederate colored vitriol. Make a point, cite your source (for credibility), and listen to rebuttal (rinse and repeat). There…you have just been given a valuable lesson in rational discussion and debate. No excuses for the rest of your life. Now go play nice with the others…
Terminally ill. Do you know what terminal means? Ok. Would you have your hip fixed if you were terminally ill? Doesn’t make much sense does it. Just like you don’t when you say Obamas terrorist friend. You must be one of those idiots that believes Obama is not a citizen. I can’t get over you discussing an issue that isn’t an issue. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN’T WANT TO KILL YOU.
UL I forget to mention the Nazi’s were not communist. So, I’m not sure why you’re claiming communism after some of your Marxist sources.
Jo, once again, you are not directly citing your source regarding “shall”. Now sit quietly and follow along.
You said “it will be mandatory by gov’t, for your doc to have a end of life discussion with you, which it is by the word shall.”
The Bill text states [from this page], “Such consultation shall include the following: …”
Different words in different order = different meaning. Do I need to give you a reading lesson too?! Let’s start with the ABCs – vowels tomorrow.
Re the reliability of FactCheck.org: the only thing that passes for a connection between Barack Obama and this organization is that up until 2001 Obama sat on the board of a public school reform think tank funded by the Annenburg Foundation, the same foundation which has also, since 2004, funded FactCheck.org, a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania.
That’s it.
Instead of insinuating bogus connections to give the impression that FactCheck.org is biased, how about coming up with evidence to refute their research? These people are solid, respected journalists and do an incredible job.
Regarding MoveOn.org, who brought them up? I didn’t.
Mo said: Mo: Truer words have not been spoken by Obama. There is an ethical dilemma surrounding whether to provide surgeries like hip-replacements to people who may not live another month.
Obama is completely correct in stating that our healthcare expenditures are drastically high for patients in their last few months of life.
=============
I don’t disagree — my problem is gov’t being the solution to the problem. Bo says the elderly costs are at 80% in *medicaid*- which is already broke. Effectivly he is admitting gov’t failure of the system. Why in the world would we want to add more fuel to the fire?
Catastrophic HC coverage in the private sector with gov’t reducing redundant regulations, promoting gov’t based incentives, and tort reform can work far better than gov’t can.
In fact this is how gov’t was supposed to run — to assist the people and the economy not run them.
The elderly would have loads more choices instead of one choice. Yesterday BO said himself how badly the USPS worked compared to privately owned UPS or Fed Ex, thus he makes the argument for private HC.
We have been having these discussions regarding end of life care for many years. As a health care worker, we encourage ALL of our clients to have an Advance Directive handy whenever they go into a hospital or nursing home or whatever facility they go to. This is for all ages, not just those on medicare. An Advance Directive(aka Living Will)will save your family or designated surrogate from having to make a decision whether or not to have YOUR life end on machines and/or artificial nutrition and/or hydration. The counseling would not encourage suicide, or “assisted” suicide, or euthanasia. The rumor mongers are just having a field day over this. And, as for “putting to sleep” any human for whatever reason….it will NOT happen.
If you want good healthcare shouldnt you have to work for it and pay for it? Like a nice house? nice car? Am i missing something? Ive always had good insurance, but my father, and then myself, have always been employed. If everyone is suddenly entitled to the same top-notch service do you really think that the hospitals and doctors can keep up? Seems pretty simple to me.
Could it be that the Republican lawmaker who introduced this passed ammendment did so with the fiendish intention and foreknowledge of the chaos it would release. Let him come forward and explain his support of his ammendment or admit his stance.
His name, state and disreict should be widely circulated nation-wide until he comes forward.
Jo – BO said this and that. Please (again) cite your source. Your reading skills have not proven to be very effective, so I have serious doubts about your auditory processing.
I am interested in your statement – “promoting gov’t based incentives, and tort reform can work far better than gov’t can”.
When you want it your way, then government is OK? Hmmmm…I’ll let it slide for now.
Please detail your plan for:
1) tort reform and incentives (blanket statements like the one you made is not allowed),and 2)how this would be better than a public option.
Your interpretation is ridiculous. I work in health care, we already do this “consultation”. We are required already, by law, to ask if people have living wills and such and if not offer them help, usually by social services. Doing it this way seems to offer doctors a way to get paid to have an office visit to DISCUSS the issues when the person in question is of sound mind.
having prepared orders prior to a patient getting sick and ending up in the hospital will help prevent families over riding a patients wishes due to a variety of reasons. As far as I am concerned, this type of overhaul has been needed for years.
people need to read the document on there own and not believe everyones interpretation.
Jo,
Obama was saying that the U.S.P.S. didn’t wreck the private postal carriers not how badly it is run. And what do you mean one choice?
And Bob, you miss the point. Our healthcare system is broken. shouldn’t we fix it?. Just because you’ve been employed for your whole life ( who gives a crap) does that make you a better person? You’re not very intelligent either.
Bob – OK Mr. Simple – please educate us on the doctor to patient ratios currently prevalent in the U.S – and how that would be affected by a more inclusive health care system.
I thought we had the best medical system in the world? Prove or disprove…blank statements not allowed.
Mo said: From an economic stand point, yes – Obama is correct. It does not make any sense to pay for a hip replacement surgery for a ventilator dependent terminally ill patient. But from a scientific stand point, even Dr. Luce admits that there is little evidence to support that terminally ill patients can be readily identified.
And that is where the ethical dilemma comes in.
—————————-
I forgot to add – On a personal level I am against voluntary assisted suicide, but not on the national level, after all it is a free country. And in a free country one has the right to decide end of life issues for themselves. They have to deal with their God or lack of, not me.
OK – I am very pro-reform, I am now posting a concern that both sides should be knowledgeable of. Paying for this plan. Please go to link and get your book learnin’ on.
CBO Long Term Budget Outlook
(or just go to http://www.cbo.gov)
What? Wow you really are simple. Either your dying or not. But who gives a crap about that anyway. Now I can’t stand when religion becomes the basis for stances on government issues. If you believe that some super being created you and me, so be it, but the government shouldn’t be telling people whether they can die or not. That is not a govt. decision, it should be a choice. If you choose pro life because you believe you will end up in a fiery cauldron,(WOW), that is your CHOICE not the govt.s choice. God damn it!
Mitch — “One” choice would be government plans.
Several choices would be thousands of HC insurance companies plans all over the country.
(Don’t be a fooled to think private HC could compete with gov’t HC — they won’t. Gov’t can always come in cheaper. People will shop price. Plus it is CLEARLY BO administrations plan there are multiple videos on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk
As for the BO comment on the USPS, this interesting take will save me some typing:
Friday, the New York Times Business Section actually called for the privatization of the post office amid staggering losses, and even said it was in “General Motors territory.” So while the President sells you on his “post office” of health care plans, here are some questions to consider:
1.) The U.S. Post Office is the only entity allowed by federal law to deliver first class mail to your mailbox. In fact, Fedex and UPS are strictly prohibited from delivering “non-urgent” letters. If the government can fairly compete and is setting fair rules, wouldn’t the post office be open to competition at your mailbox?
2.) If Americans were offered “free” postage paid for by massive government spending and tax hikes, would Fedex and UPS still exist?
3.) The Post Office is on track to lose a staggering $7 billion this year alone. How will a government-run health care plan manage taxpayer resources more efficiently?
4.) Postmaster General John Potter says he lacks the “tools” necessary to run the Post Office effectively like a business. Would a government-run health care system have the tools it needs to run as effectively as the private sector entities it is replacing?
5.) On the one hand, the President remarks how great his public health care plan will be. On the other hand, he notes it won’t be good enough to crowd out your private insurance, i.e. the Post Office comparison. So which is it Mr. President? Will it be so great that private insurance disappears or so awful that it isn’t worth creating in the first place?
6.) But the most important question is this: if you have an urgent piece of mail you need delivered, life or death, who are you going to call? Everyone saying the government…please raise your hands. (crickets)
The most frightening line from Joe Nocera’s New York Times piece is this: “As for Mr. Potter himself, while he may want more freedom to run the Postal Service like a real business, he, too, seemed surprisingly wedded to outmoded ideas about mail service in America. ‘This country needs to have and to protect universal service,’ he said.”
Protecting universal service at the expense of cost, innovation, and quality of care. Sound familiar?
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/11/obamacare-the-post-office-of-health-care-plans/
Mitch are you dense? I SAID it’s a free country and people should have a choice.
MY PERSONAL beliefs – should not dictate YOUR beliefs.
Apparently you get off on bashing religious people as soon as you see a reference before considering the content, very sad.
You must be one of those “all” tolerant liberals.
Hypocrites.
No I get off on pissing you off. I wasn’t referencing what you said. I was reading some other things. My apologies. No I am not a liberal nor democrat nor republican. I don’t put all my eggs in one basket, but I’ll tell you the republicans are really acting like a bunch of bitches. You right wing freak.
Quote from jgarza:
“Bob – OK Mr. Simple – please educate us on the doctor to patient ratios currently prevalent in the U.S – and how that would be affected by a more inclusive health care system.
I thought we had the best medical system in the world? Prove or disprove…blank statements not allowed.”
It’s called stopping and thinking about it. Do you believe there are enough of the best doctors at the best hospitals for everyone? I don’t. I know it takes me 2 weeks to get an appointment already at some of the doctors I go to. I take some common sense, add to that what other awesome things I’ve seen the government do lately, add to that coverage recently pointing out long waits in other countries with socialized medicine. Then, I figure who do I trust more, myself, or Obama? Or any government official for that matter. I work, I earn the money, I don’t want to share with someone who doesn’t. Sorry. I heard this from a professor recently:
“The biggest problem with a democracy is eventually enough of the stupid people band together and vote themselves rich.”
That pretty much sums it up for me.
To All,
In order for this discussion to continue, we’re going to have to set a few ground rules:
1. It’s too late to call for civility, but let’s at least try to back off the ad hominems: “stupid,” “moron,” “lefty,” “right-wing freak,” etc.
2. No more attacking people for their religious beliefs, real or perceived. It’s off-topic and off-limits.
3. No more Hitler/Nazi/Commie/Fascist references or comparisons. I currently hold the record for those and aim to keep it. (And seriously, such comparisons are utterly lacking in historical foundation and an insult not only to decent folks who are being smeared with these epithets, but also to all those who have actually suffered and died under such regimes.)
Thank you.
I find it amazing after the Terry Sheibo hoopla where the president and every “right” thinking idiot in congress was involved with the end of her life.
To plan ahead for one’s death and the terms of whatever I deem as a dignified death is as much my right as anything else. Unfortunately there are people who don’t want me to have a say in my demise, with very few exceptions I can’t make statements about when I want the plug pulled. Here is a simple structure that voluntarily allows you to get help in deciding how you want to die, what measures you want the medical community and your family to take and counselling for each and everyone of us to understand what complications there may be.
I’m a Veteran I go to the VA and every so often they ask me whether or not I have a living will in place. I find that more helpful than hindrance since it is a subject that I am reticent to attack on my own. But, as in the case of Ms Scheibo, I’ll bet that the entire country would have been better off if she had “her” desires in writing than the horrendous dog and pony show that surrounded her and the attacks on her loved ones.
To have a living will in place is probably the kindest thing a person can do for their surviving family. It states in black and white how you want to leave this mortal coil. Not create a battle between your loved ones over how your life will end.
I can not understand how anyone can read this any other way. It is turning a goodness into something evil. All for political and economic continuation of the same old *stuff*. You’re being bought off by idiots people. People with something to gain $. The medical community, insurance and drug companies. Learn to read.
Bob have you been in these other countries and did you see a doctor? Hmm! They are getting pretty pissed off at the accusations. I don’t see people rushing here because we are so great with our health care. Open your eyes man, the insurance companies are the evil ones here. Insurance companies already dictate what and how in our medicine.
If you don’t want the federal government in healthcare, give up medi-cal and medicare!!!!
Bob – I am not making the point, you are. Please prove your point – saying it doesn’t make it so. I welcome your viewpoint, and would be delighted if you could give me SOME evidence that your statement would occur.
I could say that a Public Option will streamline the system (or anything), it just makes sense…but without some kind of evidence or source – who cares…useless. Please prove your point.
First of all, private insurance is BIG business and the first concern is NOT giving people comprehensive healthcare but making money. 2nd, it is NOT always more costly to insure someone with a pre-existing condition. I know of people who were turned down due to a yeast infection. Are you seriously telling me that cost money? What about IBS? All that requires is eating 6 grams of fiber per day. Give me a break.
Snide Jesse said: When you want it your way, then government is OK? Hmmmm…I’ll let it slide for now.
What in the world does that mean? I’m for federal gov’t doing what federal gov’t is supposed to do LIMITED by LAW, no more.
Lost Jesse said: Jo – BO said this and that. Please (again) cite your source.
Jo: There is this little thing called scrolling up, try it. I have posted NUMEROUS links. I back up all claims.
Snarky Jesse said: Your reading skills have not proven to be very effective, so I have serious doubts about your auditory processing.
Jo: Auditory prosessing? LOL …. can you hear me NOW? Or was this some sort of lame reference to APD??
My reading skills are just fine, lefty comprehension skills are not so great on “urban legends” however.
I don’t have time tonight to do the homework for the informationaly impaired. There are all sorts of ideas for HC, the ones I laid out are just a few, look them up.
You know, it’s a lot like scrolling up, only this is typing words like “Tort reform” in google. It really is pretty simple stuff.
I won’t be on for a while, so that should give you ample time to attempt comprehension of alternative HC options.
Ciao
Bob – please Google “Wendell Potter” to get a perspective on someone who has been on both sides of this issue. or see Wendell Potter on PBS It takes you 2 weeks to see a doctor as it is? Maybe you are disproving your own point for me.
There’s not enough Doctors, Hospitals or money to give it away free to everyone. Period. We don’t give everyone free houses for a reason, even though that shortens their lives also. Do I need to prove a source that shows there’s enough wood and hammers to do so?
All of you need to read this and stop reading the trash e-mails and payed advertised slams! If you have ever had elderly partents or grandparents planning their request good sense tells you to plan for the futher. Everyone has herd of LIVING WILLS?
Wish people would not just take every word as truth. READ and STUDY the issues and stop being spoon feed!
Bob who said people are getting health care for free? The govt. option isn’t free. Read what Mike. How about reading the bill?
Bob – yes…this is my point exactly. If you say there isn’t enough doctors and hospitals to serve the U.S., then I would LOVE for you to site a source, article, magazine — something that would substantiate that claim – - or just admit that you don’t know for sure…I can admit that, can you?
Jo – many pardons…you did leave several links supporting your ideologies of limited government. You still make some large leaps in logic and haven’t addressed the primary question in this blog, but I do appreciate you trying so very hard.
Here is a source you might want to check out…
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:JsTU0b81waMJ:www.whitneyforgov.org/articles/pdf/HealthCare.pdf+healthcare+payout+rates+per+dollar&hl=en&gl=us
I think I get you…so even if Public Health Care is more effective and efficient overall, you would rather have government give tax breaks so private insurance could potentially continue to raise rates, lower payouts, and soak up those savings as well. I appreciate you standing by your ideology – maybe if you mixed in a little rationality, just a little, you would certainly then have a powerful message.
You have been a good sport.
jgarza (were you Jesse?) said:
Jo – many pardons…you did leave several links supporting your ideologies of limited government.
Jo: Accepted, and I could only wish they were my ideas. They are are the foundation of of American government.
jgarza said: You still make some large leaps in logic and haven’t addressed the primary question in this blog, but I do appreciate you trying so very hard.
Jo: You’ll have to scroll WAY back for that. I, as many Americans, do not agree on some interpretations of this ambiguous bill. However, the point is moot since this bill is not the senate version.
jgarza said: Here is a source you might want to check out…
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:JsTU0b81waMJ:www.whitneyforgov.org/articles/pdf/HealthCare.pdf+healthcare+payout+rates+per+dollar&hl=en&gl=us
Jo: Thank you, but I do not agree with the premise that we have higher mortality rates, or worse health care than other countries etc… If this were the case then WHY do so many people come here for HC??
jgarza said: I think I get you…so even if Public Health Care is more effective and efficient overall, you would rather have government give tax breaks so private insurance could potentially continue to raise rates, lower payouts, and soak up those savings as well. I appreciate you standing by your ideology – maybe if you mixed in a little rationality, just a little, you would certainly then have a powerful message.
You have been a good sport.
Jo: Well, golly gee thanks.
Look, you and I have two different ideas about freedom. I believe that making money is NOT inherently evil, and you do. The largest problems we have in any industry is government interference. The more gov’t (or judiciary) makes it hard for American business to work, the higher the costs become. (Again tort reform.) Not just in HC — all industry, and as a result our companies MOVE over seas, or quit the unprofitable pursuit of that venture. They shop like any other consumer.
I’m not saying industry shouldn’t be regulated, this is the job of the federal gov’t regarding interstate commerce. But it is the job of the individual state for things that are not sold out of state such as HC. We’ve seen some states try plans, as Romney’s HC plan in MA, and we have learned from it.
In all seriousness, I ask Americans do we want a 50 state single payer costly failure like MA? Or should we proceed with caution and try new ideas STATE by willing STATE first?
Now THAT is a rational idea.
As the guarantors of justice and promoters of the general welfare, governments have the unique role of ensuring equitable access to health care for all. This role does not necessarily entail a specific governmental program or one approach to health care coverage. It does mean, however, that governments have the obligation to provide leadership and coordination in balancing competing private and social interests in moving toward the goal of equitable access to health care. In ways that are fair in both process and outcome,
Citizen representatives in government must take on the challenging task of defining the level of health care services to which all persons should have access.
Achieving these obligations of love and justice requires sacrifice, goodwill, fairness, and an abiding commitment to place personal
and social responsibilities of love and justice above narrower individual, institutional, and political self-interests.
For some people, this may mean paying more in taxes or in direct payments to assure that everyone has care. As difficult as this may be, citizens should not shrink from these moral challenges.
I urge all people to advocate for access to basic health care for all and to participate vigorously and responsibly in the public discussion on how best to fulfill this obligation.
The chronic failure of our society to provide its members access to basic health care services is a moral tragedy that should not be tolerated.
This is kind of long but to me it makes a lot of since!! To me this should be The President’s Priorities??
Hello my name is Kurt and I am presently working as a contractor in Iraq for our military. I know that this long but felt that everyone should know from where I am over here in Iraq just about everyone is in agreement of what the priority should be for this administration! I have been over here for almost 10 months now and have had an opportunity to talk to several people from one corner of the USA to the other. Some were military some were civilian contractors. NONE of the people that I have talked with agree about any of the bail outs! If the company goes out of business it is because of BAD business practices. By giving them more money, this isn’t going to help them with their mistakes and it is going to cost us all! They need to fix their own problems. You wouldn’t get help nor would I from the government if we would make bad business decisions so why bail out a bad business? About the health care problem, I do agree with the current administration that the health care system does need to be overhauled but not as one of their Priorities! Most of the people that I have talked too about the problems in the USA fill that the order of priority should be something like this!
1) Our Economy (America First) – What ever happen to America First? We have to fix our own problems before we worry about ANY other countries problems or needs! When we trade with another country it should be dollar for dollar!! The same with oil and wheat, they bump up the price of oil we bump up the wheat but that goes for any country we trade with that tries to bend us over a barrel! Here is a few prices for gas in other countries, Saudi Arabia Riyadh $0.91, Kuwait Kuwait City $0.78, Egypt Cairo $0.65, Nigeria Lagos $0.38, Venezuela Caracas $0.12. We should be getting most of our fuel from Venezuela then at least it would be below $1.75 after transporting it to the USA! It is about business, not whether we like each other our not. The USA can out build any country doing any thing. We just need the CEO’s not to be so greedy and share the wealth! No one deserves a MILLION DOLLAR BONUS no matter what they do! But also you shouldn’t be paid $30 – $35 an
hour straight time to put lug nuts on a truck wheel or put a windshield in a car either! A new Pick Up Truck shouldn’t cost $20,000.00 or more!!
2) Illegal immigration – This was close to being the number one problem but just fell a little short! Illegal is illegal. The illegals are costing our tax payers MILLIONS of dollars and probably Billions a year!! This has to be stopped!! If you don’t come into the country legally, you are here illegally and if a baby is born in the USA from an Illegal person the baby should not be a US citizen. The baby should be a citizen of the country the mother is from! Strengthen our borders no matter what it takes to keep the illegal’s out! Raid the sweat shops and all the other job sites that illegal’s work and get ALL illegal’s out, the ones in jail, after there time is up take them to the border and drop them off! It doesn’t matter where they came from! If they come in the legal way and have their Green card or work visa than that is great, they got here legally just like my ancestors had to do! No exception for ANY Illegal’s, get them out!!
3) Housing Market – There again another bail out, let them fail and another company WILL buy them out! I believe that the main problem was people bought homes that were way out of there price range and wanted to play the game “Keeping up with the Jones” and they failed! It was there own fault they got the loan, no one made them sign on the line for the loan! If you can’t afford it you DO NOT buy it, I don’t blame the banks, I do blame the people that got the loans and now can’t pay there bill!! I sorry but my taxes from my hard earned money should not go out to help pay someone else’s bills! I have my own family to worry able, I didn’t over extend my family, I did what was right, I am sure that there are a few, very few exceptions to this problem though.
4) Our Government – 15 to 20 years ago most people thought that the government was here for the people. Now if you ask the average person walking done the street “Do you trust the government to do the right thing” I would guess that more than 60% would say NO. If you ask “Does the government have the average working man or woman (Middle Class) best interest in mind” and it was yes or no question the answer would be NO! I don’t know of anyone that truly trusts our government to do what is best for the majority of the people any more. If I had things my way I would love to start all over with a NEW Congress and ALL new Senators, the people that are there now are way over paid for what they really do for US as a country! Every position in our government should have a term length of 12 years at the most. Also no retirement or compensation for the job after your term is over. That way we could get good businessmen and women in those positions and would do the job because it is THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR OUR COUNTRY!! This is not about your political party, it is about the USA!! Then after their term or terms are over All of them could just do a good job for the USA for a few years and when their term or terms are over
go back to there own business. There are several Millionaires out there that could do a lot better job than what we have now, America is a business and that is how we would do so much better but always remember AMERICA FIRST!! It would be a lot better country to live in if they all had term limits and didn’t OWE someone something!! Our Government now is terrible; it’s all about the party that they represent and not the people! This is still the best country in the world to live in because of our people not the Political Parties!!!!
5) All Government assisted programs – Drug testing for Government Assisted programs of any kind like welfare. All checks would not be sent out by the mail or direct deposit, to receive your check you would have to come in to a sight with in 15 miles of your registered home address on one of 2 days that are assigned to the individual every other week and take a drug test. If you come up dirty you don’t get your check for that 2 week period, than you can try again the following scheduled date! If you show up dirty 2 times with in a 12 month span than you lose your assistance.
Finally last but not least
6) Health care – First if this is going to be a Government Supported health care program than I would assume that being as the President wants this so bad and both the Congress and Senate will pass it that they will be at the top of the list to give up what they have and sign up for this Great program?? This is a must for the program to go through!! If they don’t us it than why should they expect anyone else to BUY in to the program? If they are voting on it for the people then they should also be the first to sign up! Health care does need to come under some type of control and I think that the best way to do that would be to have a government system/program like BCBS. That way if you like you can BUY in to the government health care program but nothing is free and it should be based on your family size and income. Also have more government run hospitals just like the military but you would have to buy into the government health care insurance plan to use it just like you do now with your present policies. Government hospitals could accept other insurance polices and bill them too just as you do now. That way our military would always have medical care available and it would be close at hand when they needed the care!
If these problems were taken care of in this order you would see that we are not in as bad of shape as our government wants us to believe with health care! Of course our county has several more problems, a lot more than the items listed above. From over here across the pond and the conversations I have had over the last 10 months these are the biggest problems in the order they are listed! One thing that I would suggest, being as our government is giving all these loans out to all these companies that have made so many mistakes and we really don’t know if we are ever going to see any of it back they should start a credit card division and have a low set rate by your credit score. Have credit cards available from $1000.00 to help get someone’s credit started and then go up to a max of $50,000 a card. That way the government could actually help out the people that have paid the taxes they are giving out to all those large companies! Also the government would make money off of the interest too. Finally no income tax!! Charge a flat tax on everything you buy and that way everyone is paying the same amount in taxes!! Just because your rich you should not have to pay more than the poor but shouldn’t have an accountant for write offs either! The large companies would be paying the same as the small companies. You’re only taxed on what you buy!! That way we all are paying the same percentage in taxes for what we buy.
In closing, I heard a black official from the south stating that most of the military has no problems with gays in the military and want the “Don’t ask Don’t tell ” policy removed or just go away, that is not true! The majority DO NOT think they should be allowed in the military and especially in combat, it does cause problems! I personally would not want a gay dude fighting by my side and MOST if not ALL of the military personal that I spoke to feel the same way!
Feel free to contact me through e-mail, phone service is not too good for incoming calls over here in Iraq!!
Thanks for your time, Kurt
Back to health care, if the House and Senate can get a decent health care bill that contains all of the recommendations of the Obama administration, there would be no reason at all for our elected officials and government employees should have anything but the public option! Why pay profits to insurance executives who are taking billions off the top of their companies from premiums we pay?
There is no place for these kinds of profits in the health care insurance industry.
Anyone ever think that…I don’t know…maybe capitalism doesn’t work? I know that’s a blasphemous thing to say. I just don’t understand how capitalism somehow became a religion that one is born into and must believe in even if all signs say it isn’t true. Not sure what the answer is but I like the concepts behind Democratic Socialism and so does Obama. Do some research. There are SEVERAL different types of Socialism and it has nothing to do with Fascism. You must be confused with our past regime who you didn’t seem to care passed the Patriot Act. Those freedoms aren’t important though. Let’s fight about giving people healthcare instead!
This whole argument is ridiculous. If you actually read the numbers on how health care is currently being dealt with by the insurance companies, do the math, look at the waste and greed there is NO WAY that you wouldn’t think that they need a reality check themselves. Things cannot continue this way. People get so attached to ideologies without looking at what’s right in front of them. Add that to this capitalism, i’m entitled to, i’ve worked hard for what I got you lazy asses attitude and it’s enough to make me nauseated. I have a F’ing Master’s Degree in Clinical Psychology and am currently considered “low income” by the City of Chicago. The simple reason for this is because I do not create immediate revenue. Therefore, I am not important. That’s capitalism. If you work to help people who starve right along with them BUT if you run an insurance company and you make other people a bunch of money in profits then you will be happily taken care of with millions upon millions of dollars. You deserve it.
Pat said: As the guarantors of justice and promoters of the general welfare, governments have the unique role of ensuring equitable access to health care for all.
Jo: WHERE is the “right” to HC in American LAW?? WHAT “governments” are you talking about? Federal? State? Local? Foreign??
WOW!! WOW!!
Wow said: maybe capitalism doesn’t work?
Really? Are you serious?? How can you be??
233 years of VERY well fed people, free and at liberty, healthy, who created a super power gov’t, that is a astoundingly successfully diverse country (America, BTW for Obama voters).
All this attained by capitalism, you infer, is JUST an illusion? Are you KIDDING me?
Are some of you psychologically mad? I’m sorry, but I’m really wondering if you REALIZE how very lucky you are to be American?
Wow said: I have a F’ing Master’s Degree in Clinical Psychology and am currently considered “low income” by the City of Chicago. The simple reason for this is because I do not create immediate revenue.
———-
I don’t profess to know your life, but perhaps you ought to move to a place in the US, where you degree pays? Or perhaps you CHOSE a degree that was not needed?
Not sure, as I said — but if you are a sincere hard worker, you will be successful if you CHOSE well.
Everything in life comes down to choice.
I’ll tell you this something needs to be done about health care. this bill may not be what we need, but I’m self employed, had a heart attack at 41 and can not get health insurance unless I pay $989.00a month with a $5000.00 deductable 50/50 plan who can afford that. and it will not cover my heart.
This is what government does to its people. Please read below.
1 Samuel 8
“This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth (more like 50% today) of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.”
Mitch said: Terminally ill. Do you know what terminal means? Ok. Would you have your hip fixed if you were terminally ill? Doesn’t make much sense does it.
Jo: You sir, are among the most frightening HC supporters. My aunt was diagnosed as “terminal” given only 3 months to live, yet she LIVED for 12 more years, yet under this plan you would have made her suffer and walk with a bad hip for those 12 years?
Just sickening.
Jo: I don’t disagree — my problem is gov’t being the solution to the problem. Bo says the elderly costs are at 80% in *medicaid*- which is already broke. Effectivly he is admitting gov’t failure of the system. Why in the world would we want to add more fuel to the fire?
Mo: Obama is not talking about a government program specifically in his assertion that 80% of health care costs arise in the last few months of life.
He is not referring to either Medicaid or Medicare specifically in that sentence.
He is referring to ALL HEALTH CARE SPENDING IN THE COUNTRY!!!!!!!! That means how much you spend + how much I spend + how much your neighbor spends + how much your grandmother spends + how much everyone else in this country spends on healthcare.
He is not referring to a failure in any government run program. He is simply stating that we Americans spend roughly 80% of our total health care costs in the last few months of life. To dumb it down for you – hypothetically, I will spend $100 to pay for healthcare for my entire life. $80 of that $100 will be spent in my last few months.
So if the average lifespan of an average American male is 74 years, (using the numbers from above) that male will spend $20 over 73.5 years to cover the cost of health care. His last 6 months, (from 73.5 to 74) he will spend the remaining $80 to extend his life 6 more months.
On a side note, Jo, I really hope you know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid. Because if you don’t, in my honest opinion, you have NO RIGHT to post the kind of inane drivel I’ve seen you write on this message board.
Jo: Jo: WHERE is the “right” to HC in American LAW?? WHAT “governments” are you talking about? Federal? State? Local? Foreign??
Mo: When Jefferson wrote “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
In order to have Life, one must have health.
How can one pursue Happiness without one’s health?
A healthy population will only make America and Americans stronger. It will not weaken the foundation of this country.
No matter what your stance is do you see how ” these parties” create a barrier between Americans. Doesn’t it seem quite obvious that these tactics of turning each other against each other are just to keep us BUSY!!
Anyway, I don’t care if you are a Republican or a Democrat but the officals are not even listening to the people. What was the whole rushed push to pass this bill?? That is a HUGE red flag. Has anybody ever noticed how the politicians like to use fear as a scare tactic. This system is not working… we need something now or worst things can happen!! There is no need to rush a bill of this magnitude, they need to sit down and read the bill and consider the thoughts of ALL AMERICANS.
So anyway I personally think this bill stinks. No matter how you want to say it this bill, speaks of the government being MORE involved than what they need to be. And I want ALL of you to consider something…. the officals, judges… etc.. HAVE NOT BEEN LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE. THEY will interpret this law as THEY SEE FIT… they like to use obscure language for a reason. And it’s NOT to our benefit.
I don’t understand how people put so much TRUST in the government. Yes, I understand respecting the government and being a law abiding citizen. BUT to think the government IS always free from corruption. That truly scares me. People need to wake up and remember what these officals have been doing!!! It doesn’t matter if your Democrat or Republican THEY have been doing what THEY WANT TO DO!!!
So how about we ignore the parties and just band together as people who WE know are looking out for the welfare of the people. The government has shown that they are not thinking according to the rights and direction of the people.
Stop suggesting that health care reform will turn us into Russia. It has nothing to do with black market Russia, circa today or yesteryear.
The governmet is already providing medicare which is government run, social security which is government run. do you want those to be abolished too?? this bill is not saying to kill your older people .. it is simply making sure they have the ‘choice’ to sit and vegetate or ‘expire’ as requested. To make sure their loved ones are aware of their wishes.. Its people putting the wrong spin on things that cause the confusion.. As far as rushing this bill, if we don’t do something soon, we are going to be paying triple what we are now for health care in 5 years. Anytime anyone tries to do something with the drug companies, everyone gets in an uproar.. the drug companies and unregulated prices are what are killing the old people now.. thye cannot afford it!!! and its out of control!!!!!!!! Should NOTHING be done?
How many congressmen, senators etc, would give up their GOVERNMENT run health care that they DO NOT HAVE to pay for the rest of their lives?? they LOVE it! STOP talking about it and showing your ignorance.. something HAS to be done!
Jo, Jo, Jo. WAKE UP! Capitalism was built by taking advantage of people! Capitalism works because we are a super power you say? Russia was a super power too and they were Communists. Not a good argument. I’m not a Communist by the way so don’t start telling me to move to Russia.
As far as my services being “not needed”… I give you a huge WOW for that one. There is far more need then there are funds to support it. Community mental health is notoriously underpaid EVERYWHERE. I return to my initial argument that it’s because I don’t produce immediate revenue. Sure, I might keep people from ending up in jail or the hospital down the line which is more expensive but no one cares about that. I don’t want you to think that I think I deserve to be wealthy. I don’t really care about that. I just want to live a day without doing math, trying to figure out how to make it through until I get my next paycheck. I had to take furlough days this summer and have lost 20% of my already small income because of this great capitalist economy. If something doesn’t give I’ll have to get rid of my own health insurance because even though my agency pays 55% of the premium I still have to pay over 200 a month. That may not sound like a lot to you but it’s a lot to me. That, in addition to my student loans (which I’m on forebearance and interest keep racking up) It’s all about greed greed greed. You have a very narrow idea of how people live, Jo.
And Jo, I do realize how lucky I am to be an American. I do BUT that doesn’t mean that we can’t learn from others and be BETTER. Capitalism is not a religion, it’s a THEORY like any other. It’s a system that relies on owners to pay laborers. The owners, in the case of health care, want to make a profit. This is one of many areas where “laborers” get screwed. Before this recession 51% of the world’s largest economies were corporations! Who do you think they care about except their bottom line?
it’s very difficult for me to continue debating with you because you obviously don’t know what it’s like to live outside of your little box. I have to go to work now to help children. What do you do?
Mo,
Obama said: “I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.”
Out here?? He said this while pitching HR 3200 and that bill edits SS/medicaid. Presumably he was talking about gov’t cost. But either way, no point of getting stuck on BO 80% meaning, it is irrelevant, you are missing the larger point I raised.
To “dumb” it down for you.
Gov’t has NO BUSINESS telling us how much we are “allowed” to spend on HC. (Yes, I know the costs are high, and we must address this problem, however not via gov’t.)
If gov’t is footing the bill, then they have a say. Which is the entire point of this debate. If gov’t has control they clearly plan to place LIMITS on HC coverage. (To believe otherwise is naive.) Every country that has universal HC has yearly limits, lines and rationing.
Obama said this in the NY Times: OBAMA: “Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.”
Granted he doesn’t come right out and detail what he inferring, but the gist of it is — The goal is to save money, not lives. Read the whole exchange (BTW, this is the conversation that sparked the “death panel” debate.)
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/kausfiles/archive/2009/08/12/will-you-won-t-you-be-on-my-death-panel.aspx
Now take this in combination with the many other times he has suggested medication over surgery, Jacob Hackers “un-trojan horse” (he worked on the HC plan for Obama)plan that will kill private care, among other democratic leaders telling us the gov’t plan will kill private HC, and then add this ambiguous bill.
Taking all things into account, no wonder so many people are concerned.
Mo: When Jefferson wrote “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
In order to have Life, one must have health.
How can one pursue Happiness without one’s health?
===============================
Oh PLEASE this is a silly argument. The founders were for LIMITED gov’t, and open markets. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness was about freedom from gov’t tyranny not HC, don’t be ridiculous.
WOW says: Jo, Jo, Jo. WAKE UP! Capitalism was built by taking advantage of people!
Jo: Ridiculous. Capitalism — FREE MARKETS — creates wealth for all. No one can be taken advantage of if they don’t ALLOW it. The USA is proof free markets work. Take a look around the world and see if you’d trade places. Even in this recession we are 100% better off than most countries. And BTW the only reason we had THIS recession was GOVERNMENT. They meddled in housing and prolonging the pain by printing cash.
Mo: Capitalism works because we are a super power you say? Russia was a super power too and they were Communists. Not a good argument.
Jo: Geezz — do you remember what happened to the USSR?? Doh!
Mo: As far as my services being “not needed”… I give you a huge WOW for that one. There is far more need then there are funds to support it. Community mental health is notoriously underpaid EVERYWHERE.
Jo: And, as I said apparently you CHOSE you profession unwisely. If you desire more money then pursue a differnt career. And BTW in America you have the freedom of CHOICE to do just that.
Mo: I don’t want you to think that I think I deserve to be wealthy. I don’t really care about that. I just want to live a day without doing math, trying to figure out how to make it through until I get my next paycheck.
Jo: Again you are the master of your own destiny in this free country. Many of us have to live on a budget, I do as well. Some of the richest people I know have to “do the math” especially now because they have lost MILLIONS in the market and real estate, everything is relative. People who have a giant mortgage have the same problems as people who rent. Class envy arises when one thinks they have it worse *because* of another.
Mo: I had to take furlough days this summer and have lost 20% of my already small income because of this great capitalist economy.
Jo: Capitalism is NOT THE BLAME of this economy — politicians are. The housing bubble lead to this economy — and the housing bubble was a direct result of BAD policy that attempted to make housing “fair” and “equal” for all. All penned by unscrupulous politicians who promise handouts in exchange for your vote. Such as this HC bill. It will not make things better in HC, it’ll make things worse.
Mo: If something doesn’t give I’ll have to get rid of my own health insurance because even though my agency pays 55% of the premium I still have to pay over 200 a month. That may not sound like a lot to you but it’s a lot to me.
Jo: We pay $800 a mo. for family coverage, trust me I understand. But gov’t is not the answer.
Mo: That, in addition to my student loans (which I’m on forebearance and interest keep racking up) It’s all about greed greed greed. You have a very narrow idea of how people live, Jo.
Jo: No I don’t Mo, you don’t know how wrong you are about this. I was on my own at 16, living off water and cheese sandwiches in a tiny dumpy one room apartment struggling to pay the rent. Now after many years of self educating myself in real estate,(all from my computer!), and buying one dump after another – fixing them *myself* – I have finally semi-retired at age 45. I built my custom dream home on a 40 acre farm with three barns (horse cows etc..). ALL self made by using my brain and pursuing my happiness. I’m not telling you this by any means to boast. I’m telling you that it is possible to get yourself out of poverty and into wealth in this country, even without formal training.
I am living proof of this possibility.
Mo: it’s very difficult for me to continue debating with you because you obviously don’t know what it’s like to live outside of your little box. I have to go to work now to help children. What do you do?
Jo: I train horses in my new “little box”.
This summer I have traveled to NC, and I’m off to ME soon, got to get out of that little box you know!I also spend time teaching my acquired knowledge of RE to friends – no charge. Some have listened (one sold their 1/4 acre home, and moved mortgage free to a 10 acre home.) Others are a lot like you and are fearful of taking a risk on something different.
CHANGE is not easy but it is enlightening. No matter how much you WISH your profession would pay more, apparently it won’t. So perhaps, you ought to follow a different dream?
BTW Most “rich” people I know are self made, and became rich by taking RISK, not siting around whining about their circumstances.
WHAT?? Are people losing their minds. For years, hospitals ask everyone (regardless of age) if you have a living will and if not, if you would like counseling on getting one. All this bill does is allow payment to your health care provider for the service, just as has been the case for YEARS by Blue Cross, Aetna and the rest of the companies whose stock holders currently control your health care.
jo- you are correct about “well fed” when I see ALL THE OBESE AMERICANS AND THEIR OVERWEIGHT CHILDREN TAXING OUR MEDICAL CARE SYSTEM TO THE TUNE OF OVER 87 BILLION DOLLARS YEAR!
you know the people that are up in arms about health care reform, are the same ones that are receiving free health care now. i.e. medicare and medicaid. They are worried they are going to lose it. And the reason our health care premiums are so high is because of the insurance companies trying to expand their bottom lines. there are unneeded tests, when one will do they make you take 5. don’t you get it. the insurance companies are already taking advantage of people all to turn a profit. Free enterprise at the expense of human health is wrong. The govt. is NOT a business. Insurance companies are. who do you think is coming up with these false claims of what the bill says. come on think about it. God forbid you need an operation and your wonderful insurance company won’t pay for it, or try not to. Do you want your health at the hands of free enterprise? It’s just not right. Making profit at the demise of people is fing wrong. just plain wrong.
Hey JO I bet you didn’t care whether the people who bought your house were able to afford it. I know it’s not the seller who took advantage, but I bet you didn’t care then.. And you care now
Where does it say anything about assisted suicide, there going over your end of life health care options & other legal issues, your an idiot, thats scared of progress, regardless what it says, i do believe that some people hang on to long, if your life consists of laying in a hospital bed all day, it might be time to check out.
Maybe I missed it…but where does it say that a consultation in REQUIRED….furthermore where does it say the following with regards to the consultation; “the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier”. Sounds to me like our buddy David Emery is just another fear-mongering GOP mouthpiece…..try http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/14/blayney.death.discussions/index.html for a more REALISTIC explanation.
with my apologies David….I missed your opening sentence and incorrectly assumed that the shaded text was your point of view….I agree…the rumors are hysterical……
I never made any of those comments in your response 441.
This is crap. My grandfather is 92 and he been doing that on his on through VA for years. this is only to ensure their wishes not to committ their own dealt but if they chose not to be resuslated then that his choice. thats because he is sick and his wife my grandmother whom he was married to for 67 years died. I love him but thats his choice not mine or yours to determine his wishes. Its a natural death that he choice to undertake not take overdose, not shoot himself, but if his heart stops becuase of his illness he dont want to be a vegetable becuase of a stoke or something. By stoppping a person chioice to choose the real question is you trying to control whom. Read your bill and stop speading lies and admit that the real reason most WHITES are fighting this is becuase of the social probloms in the united states itself. I fought for 23 years in the miltiary 3 war zones, twice in Bonsia and i still have to put up with this crap to defend my own freedom at home is which i fought to protect outside our borders. Thanks You
Mo my apologies, 441 was to WOW.
holy f ing crap donnie. the fighting you did had nothing to do with this. wow bud what the hell are you talking about. I see a diverse racial representation in the discussions on this. wow race isn’t an issue pal
I personally think the government needs make a list of what is really needed. We need good jobs. And a way for people like me to get back to school if they got a school debt. I would gladly work in exchange to get back in school. What about the volunteer program to help people finish school that Obama promise. I have one housekeeping job that just reduced my hours and I am now trying to seek a 2nd job to help pay off my school debt. And I am in a place with few jobs.So I am trying to make it. I just want to be able to finish school. I think the health care bill is just a way to include the verichip(human tracking device) that is starting to pop up in hospitals.
The question everyone should be asking is, what is the purpose of this ‘consulting business’ if not to assess and decide on whether a person should live or die?
Case in Point:
“(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—
“(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;
So now a doctor has to provide good reason for sustaining life? WTF??! The big red flag is this- ‘as the health of the individual changes’…this means that the order could be submitted and denied at the onset of a medical problem. This is bad news.
Mitch said :Hey JO I bet you didn’t care whether the people who bought your house were able to afford it.
Jo: Ready for a lesson Mitch? Think about it, it is not a matter of caring — privacy laws forbid private sellers from attaining financial records on buyers. I cannot find out if they can afford a house without their express permission to do so.
Now if this was in referring to the housing bubble. Let’s set a few things straight.
In short and dumbed down, it goes like this:
-The government tells the poor “people” they DESERVE to own a a home. It’s only *fair*… and “equal”.
-Government with the stroke of a pen crafts legislation forcing banks to make loans on the behalf of the “poor” with NO money down.
-The poor buy the homes.
-The poor vote the wonderful benevolent government officials that got them FREE stuff – back into office.
-The government knowing this will eventually fail buys back the loans, *bundles* the loans, and sells them in investment vehicles such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack.
-The housing market bubble bursts.
-The poor who have a NO MONEY DOWN loan lose their home. (They lose the home, but no money.)
Stay with me, this is where it gets good!
The government blames the banks and the loan officers that we forced by gov’t law to make the loans.
The government blames *greedy* investors/speculators, some who invested in Fannie and Freddie Mae and lost their investment, when it went from $70+ per share to $.22 a share.
Government blames each other, but the truth is one party has been the champion of housing for the poor starting way back (1930’s) but let’s start with CRA in 1977 by Carter, carried by Clinton, and perpetuated by Waters, Meeks, Dodd, Frank, etc… in the 2000’s.
So in the end the catalyst for the housing bubble, wasn’t greedy RE agents, greedy sellers, evil banks/loan officers, greedy investors, etc.
It was greedy GOVERNMENT.
And guess who had the least loss? The poor who put no money down on the home, that’s who. The evil investors and evil banks took the financial fall for the poor’s irresponsible choices. (Of course now the government is bailing out some of the banks – so WE will be paying for that.)
Adding salt to that wound the main stream media goes on about the evil greedy wealthy in this country – when the reality it is GOVERNMENT who is greedy for votes, sweetheart loans, and kick backs. (As I said this is dumbed down, some business’ of course, DID take advantage — but remember they could NOT have taken advantage if there was no government program forcing the loans!)
This recession was caused by *government* — yet you want more of the same with gov’t HC!?
It is madness.
JO, I said I know it isn’t the seller at fault, buddy. All I said is you probably didn’t care. Oh yeah you don’t know how to absorb what you read. And I don’t give a crap that these people lost their homes. They knew going into that they couldn’t afford it. So you still think private insurance companies are okay? Come on man open your eyes. You have health care right? I think you said you pay over 900/mth for your family. If there was health care for all and people weren’t using emergency rooms as their doctors offfice, your premium would be much lower. Oh yeah who paid for the Bush drug bill? NOBODY That is a huge part of our deficit. I can’t believe people like you think that our insurance companies are okay.
Jo: thanks for assuming what I think (making money is inherently evil). Once again, you uncanny knack for reading minds and interpreting all those “hidden” messages in the Bill is quite a skill.
All others on the original point of this blog:
http://mediamatters.org/research/200908130054
jgarza — Commenting on a line about making money, is all you got from post 421? Pretty lame.
Do you think trying BO HC plan on all 50 states is a good idea? Or do you think experimenting state by state to find a plan that works, is a better idea?
BTW Readers — Media Matters slants far left and omits information that doesn’t support their claims.
In this case( http://mediamatters.org/research/200908130054) left out that Palins concerns were primarily about Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel (and secondary section 1233 of HR 3200,.) a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff.
Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens….An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.”
Don’t be fooled there are real concerns outside of this bill.
Mitch I don’t think insurance companies are “ok”. I just KNOW gov’t doesn’t make them any cheaper with excessive taxation and regulation.
Let’s send the ILLEGAL aliens using our HC back home, that will save billions alone.
Money is not the most important thing to me, Jo. Being a part of something important is. Helping people lead better lives. Fighting for the well-being of those who don’t have means to fight for themselves. I don’t want to change professions. My question is why should my profession be worth so little in this country? I love what I do. Love it. I’m glad you are semi-retired and are traveling. Congratulations. The way our system works inevitably puts many people on the bottom especially without regulation. Those are just facts. You can say work harder, work harder, work harder. A lot of struggling people work very hard with the cards stacked against them. You have yet to make a comment about why insurance CEOs should make millions off other people’s sickness. You have yet to discuss how when people at the top make a ton of money and tax breaks how that never seems to trickle down to those who work the hardest at the bottom. Our system is broken. Plain and simple. Greed rules. That’s just the way it is. Come visit me in the South Side of Chicago. I’ll show you around and point out some of the realities of the world. LIke the fact that at one schools I work at there is no toilet paper or soap in the bathrooms. Like I said keep on enjoying your holiday travels…while you are enjoying your semi-retirement many people are scared to death about what their future holds. I think government is here to make sure people can survive. To create a system where people can thrive. I get the sense that in your mind you think our system is set up to allow people to thrive but you are sorely mistaken. Our system is built to create a culture of haves and have nots.
The reason so many people are angry and upset is because advanced directive planning has never been a priority in healthcare. Everyone is afraid of it because they think it means they have to, or will be pushed to make unfavorable choices. This is not the case. Advanced care directives gives you the power back. You get to decide not the government. Take a look at an advanced care directive form for yoourself and you will see you have a choice, at any age, to choose what you would like to have done based on your values, morals, religious beliefs, health status, and medical accessability. There needs to be an universal form that is completed that is respected in every state so that we do not have people being kept alive that do not want to be. It is always about the quality of life and not the quantity. Everyone needs a health care proxy to make these decisions for them if they are unable to. People need education about advanced directives.
Jo: Media Matters is left slanted…fine…but they make a better point to show how the end of life provision has been completely distorted. I really don’t care about your unending rant about state’s rights.
Just admit that you are wrong about what was contained in the bill. Even UL has shown you line by line where you were wrong. Admit it, you will feel much better about yourself…
Jo, send me your link(s) on
“Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens….An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.”
I heard this statement being made on AM Radio…I would like to check into it. PS – I won’t even judge the slant of the source, just the content.
Jo writes:
“BTW Readers — Media Matters slants far left and omits information that doesn’t support their claims.”
You’re correct — this time — that the source, Media Matters, which styles itself a corrector of “conservative misinformation,” can’t really claim to be impartial (though they do stand by their info, for whatever that’s worth).
Here’s the problem, though. You’re being hypocritical.
The rest of us have done you the courtesy of visiting links you’ve posted and checking out what they say without blowing them off as “biased.” And that even includes a link to an article on the conservative Heritage Foundation website (an excellent article, by the way).
Unlike you, some of the rest of us are actually interested to see if these sources, whatever their political orientation, have information or opinions that add to the conversation.
I suggest, therefore, that instead of automatically dismissing other people’s sources as biased (often inaccurately, I might add), you do the rest us the honor of reading them and addressing what they say.
Thanks.
Urban legend said: I suggest, therefore, that instead of automatically dismissing other people’s sources as biased (often inaccurately, I might add), you do the rest us the honor of reading them and addressing what they say.
Wow, you call me hypocritical but it is YOU who is thehypocrite. I posted a youtube of Obama saying he wanted single payer, and you said it was off topic and you wouldn’t discuss it. Remember?
But you post the Huffington Post (which IS biased left) and other posters link Media Matters (biased left) — and we should all discuss those?
I see.
BTW — Obviously I did go to Media Matters — if I hadn’t, how else would I know they didn’t have Palins primary concern — which was Dr. Emanuel??
I call them as I see them. II DID read it, and I added what they purposely left out.
Meanwhile
Jo, you addressed my Media Matters link by addressing what the article didn’t address. That’s like me trying to explain to you how good a steak tastes by describing all the things it doesn’t taste like.
Please address the content directly…btw… you are still wrong about the end of life provisions that was contained in the bill…Im still waiting for you to admit your misstep on this specific point.
jgarza says:I really don’t care about your unending rant about state’s rights.
Jo: It wasn’t about state rights. It was a simple logical question. Do you think HC various plans would be better experimented state by state, or all 50 at once?
I suspect you can’t answer it, because the rational answer for this experiment is state by state.
jgarza said: Just admit that you are wrong about what was contained in the bill.
Jo: We shall see. You interpreted the bill wrong in my opinion. I can produce just as many web sites debunking the debunkers. No point, I will wait for the details in the senate bill, if they ever produce it.
jgarza says:
Jo, send me your link(s) on
“Dr. Emanuel (snip)
I heard this statement being made on AM Radio…I would like to check into it. PS – I won’t even judge the slant of the source, just the content.
AM radio? I’ve heard it on TV, FM and AM, and read about it in the news. See, you really ought to try some media sources besides media matters and AM radio.
Here straight from Dr. Emanual writings (slanted enough for you?)
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf
And if you don’t believe his own writings (or if the are too slanted for you) maybe you can compare with what Palin said on face book?
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=116471698434
Jo,
Don’t misrepresent this. Nowhere did I dismiss a video link you posted as off-topic. I may well have said (I don’t remember) that it wasn’t relevant to whatever issue you and I were arguing about at that moment.
That’s different from simply dismissing any source anyone else posts out of hand as “biased.” You know you’ve done it more than once. I’m just asking that you play fair.
Note to All:
You may find from time to time that a comment you’ve posted doesn’t immediately appear on the page. As I told some folks up above who thought I was censoring them, the reason that happens is that comments containing more than one outside link automatically go into a queue and have to be manually approved. I’m not at the keyboard 24 hours a day, so please be patient if you have a post that isn’t showing up.
Thanks.
Jo,
You assume my answer on state experiment…The issue is off topic, please address the issue of end of life. Then we may move on to implementation…
You also assume that I have limited my pool of news sources.
Once again…your mind reading talents are truly amazing.
I am not interested in Sarah Palin’s hearsay.
The PDF link was a good link to a direct source (finally)
Please send a couple of debunking debunkers links. THIS will help address this topic.
Wow said: Money is not the most important thing to me, Jo. Being a part of something important is.
Jo: I am glad you love your job, many people do not, you are very lucky.
Wow: My question is why should my profession be worth so little in this country?
Jo: Because in this country we are free. Freedom of commerce dictates value. Do you work for a government entity? Or private?
Wow said: The way our system works inevitably puts many people on the bottom especially without regulation.
Jo: It is your choice to stay in the profession you love, so you are putting yourself on the bottom. Not society. You chose this job, not us.
Wow: You can say work harder, work harder, work harde